A question?

[Michael Stoops]

Re: A question?

Geez, I get pulled away for a couple days of media presentations/articles and this happens. Wow.

Todd, you could teach an advanced course in the hows and whys of paint defects and their correction. Beautiful information that should make all of this crystal clear to anyone. Or at least anyone without an agenda or just looking to stir trouble.

Bill, you started this thread sounding quite innocent about all this, and then reveal your true self - someone who's basically hawking a particular product and refusing to listen to anything anyone else has to say, while offering up what amounts to almost contradictory information yourself.

Example:

You are correct that I have to reapply the protect once a year, but there is a huge difference that you are not aware of. First, I do not have to strip the product to
reapply it because you can layer this product. Second, correction is rarely needed
on cars that are treated when new.

If it bonds, and you can layer it, why do you have to reapply every year?

We know we won't get a straight answer from you on this, and quite frankly we'd like to end this discussion right here and now. It is painfully obvious that you steadfastly believe what you believe, and that everyone else here (and apparently on every other detailing forum on the good ol' world wide web, for that matter) seems to be on the other side of the fence - happily hanging out together, removing swirls that were inflicted by bad automatic car washes, dirty towels, and other incorrect washing methods. Regardless of what wax, sealant, polish, etc they've applied recently, or long, long ago.

So we are closing this thread at this point, and we don't want to hear any more about this elsewhere on MOL. Starting a new thread to bring up the same topic isn't going to help your cause.

[wifpd4]

Re: A question?

Here's my disclaimer: I'm not, have not been, nor ever will be an engineer of any sort. I did glance over the NASA report and found these comments of interest. The three paragraphs are extracted from various locations in the report and should not be construed as the summary of the report. Read it for yourself.

Treatment is a two step process involving application of a liquid cleaner ( “Logisti-Prep”) and a liquid sealant ( “Logisi-Seal”) both using a hand-operated, orbital buffer with soft cloth bonnets.

If the drag reduction results are valid, the most likely reason is a small reduction in surface roughness due to the cleaning/buffing procedure.
– The possibility of a direct molecular (nano-scale) effect of the sealant on the no-slip condition is extremely remote but cannot be ruled out completely due to the complexity of gas-surface interactions and our incomplete knowledge thereof.
– Anti-fouling properties of the treated surface may contribute to maintaining low roughness in operation.

The previously observed 0.63% fuel consumption reduction in flight is consistent with a reduction in borderline roughness heights, most likely due to the Logisti-Prep and Logisti-Seal buffing portions of the application.

I thought it was interesting the reduction in drag was possibly due to....buffing.

[3Fitty]

Re: A question?

Quote:

This is not exactly "the world is round" type of argument. Take Bill's product (but get him to send you a sample so as not to support gorilla style marketing), dump some sand in a bucket with no grit guard. At soap, mix thoroughly and wash your car. Make sure your car is swirl free before you start.

Do you think that is a fair test to dump sand in the bucket? I do not. What I would
suggest is taking Dawn soap from bottle, and pouring it on a wash mit. Wet the vehicle ,and scrub the paint to clean it.

No, the claim is that this super-duper product prevents swirls on the clearcoat. At least one cause of swirls is particles of dirt rolling across the surface of the paint while washing.

So, fine, we don't need a pile of sand... I'll go with a pinch of sand right on a wet grout sponge over the paint. Surely your miracle product can hold up to a "pinch" of sand on a grout sponge, no?

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

This is not exactly "the world is round" type of argument. Take Bill's product (but get him to send you a sample so as not to support gorilla style marketing), dump some sand in a bucket with no grit guard. At soap, mix thoroughly and wash your car. Make sure your car is swirl free before you start.

Do you think that is a fair test to dump sand in the bucket? I do not. What I would
suggest is taking Dawn soap from bottle, and pouring it on a wash mit. Wet the vehicle ,and scrub the paint to clean it.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Actually the benz has scratches , and are not swirls. This car had them
when I did it . I meant the two lexus cars,jeep, and tahoe that were done when new.

Quote:

I'm very open minded, in fact, I think Opti-coat 2.0 and Cquartz are great products. Proven as well. But where's YOUR proof, Bill! The PROOF! Lol! I watched the Tahoe vid. Why didn't you show the application and process of "the product" as you say you're trying to educate us with something new?


Mike, I do not work for GEM Indusrtries, and those products you mention are not waxes or polysealants. They maybe great products. Since I work by myself ,I cannot
film how I apply the product on film.

I am a detailer who has used this product since 1993,Opti-Coat nor Cquartz cannot claim that they have been around that long.AT-5 is not well known, or promoted well
IMO. Although, it is priced well. At $50.00/gallon, and 3-4 ozs are required per car ,
it makes sense when you do detailing for a business.

Also these products are not well suited for fiberglass boats, and our better suited to be applied in a enclosed structure. That is not the case with AT-5. Also, I mention
that the product should be applied once a year, but that could be extended. The 5
means years, but I feel 1 year is a good time frame.

Opti-Coat cannot be applied over itself, maybe CQuartz can.
AT-5 is no problem at all, and can be removed with a wax remover product.
The others are not as easy.

Quote:

But where's YOUR proof, Bill! The PROOF! Lol!

I thought the videos would indicate that , but if you want more. This is a website
of a company I worked with in Houston Tx. They took AT-5 and changed a few things to comply for application on commercial jets, and jacked up the price.

They did extensive and expensive tests that show what this product can do. Here is there website:

http://logisticlean.com

[3Fitty]

Re: A question?

Oh, one last thing...

If I applied Meguiars Ultimate wax every month for 5 years, it would last five years as well. In fact, if I did it for 10 years, it would last 10 years... and so on...

So, I guess we can say Meguiars offers a wax that lasts 50 years, if used correctly!!! Well done Meguiars!

[3Fitty]

Re: A question?

I don't think I or anyone else is being hard on Bill, nor disrespecting his opinion but you have to look at the substance of what he is saying and WHERE he is writing it.

This is MOL, they have a philosophy here. One thing they teach is that good washing techniques can limit new swirls in your paint. I believe they would agree that even if you had their best sealant/wax on your car and washed with poor habits, you probably would continue to instill new swirls.

Bill says no. His new supercoating, bond to the paint, magic doodle, prevents all swirls. As evidence, he offers some video of some heavily swirled cars as proof.

Further, what he is asking forum members to believe is that people like:

Kevin Brown
Mike Pennington
Michael Stoops
Todd Helme
Mike Phillips
David Fermani
Chad Raskovic
Chris Dasher
Joe (Superior Shine)
Meguiars (as a company)
Menzerna (as a company)
Poorboys (as a company)
Mother's (as a company)
Turtle Wax (as a company)
Simoniz (as a company)
etc....

Are all wrong, but he is right.

This is not exactly "the world is round" type of argument. Take Bill's product (but get him to send you a sample so as not to support gorilla style marketing), dump some sand in a bucket with no grit guard. At soap, mix thoroughly and wash your car. Make sure your car is swirl free before you start.

Examine the paint after the wash. Is your car still swirl free? My bet is no. I think *most* pros would agree with me.

Who has enough confidence in Bill's product to give it a try?

[Mike Bones]

Re: A question?

Sorry, not only was it the Lexus, but the Benz had swirls on the hood too. Forgot to mention that... You're right, I had to find more evidence to debunk you further. I'm a noob, what do I know?

I'm very open minded, in fact, I think Opti-coat 2.0 and Cquartz are great products. Proven as well. But where's YOUR proof, Bill! The PROOF! Lol! I watched the Tahoe vid. Why didn't you show the application and process of "the product" as you say you're trying to educate us with something new? Cquartz has a nice video about their product, and by the way I believe their coating only needs to be renewed once every 2 years.

[gsx62391]

Re: A question?

Quote:

We know that Dawn will remove any wax on the car but we also know that it cannot remove a polymer sealant, acrylic, or PTFE.

Sorry for my mistake! I'm getting a little sloppy in my writing.

Understandable

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

We know that Dawn will remove any wax on the car but we also know that it cannot remove a polymer sealant, acrylic, or PTFE.

Sorry for my mistake! I'm getting a little sloppy in my writing.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

Um "the product"... does not mean there are no swirl marks. I also find it funny how the light hits the car just right and your camera hand speed went into maximum warp. Man, you are hilarious.


Mike what do you want me to say? You find one angle on four videos, and say I did
not spend enough time showing you that certain spot.

Quote:

Just because you've treated the trunk with snake... Um "the product"... does not mean there are no swirl marks

Now it is snake oil . I can see you have a real open mind to new things. Why is it
you treat the rest of the other videos as a snake and run away from them?

[gsx62391]

Re: A question?

Quote:

We know that Dawn will remove any wax on the car but we also know that it cannot remove a polymer sealant, acrylic, or PTFE.


Clearly, you do not. As I have said far too many times you are comparing apples with oranges. Dawn will not remove this product. Many of you continue to make these statements as fact, but it is just your assumption.

Go back and read what i just said that you quoted of mine. It says i know that dawn will remove a wax but it wont remove this product. Try to actually read the post before getting all offensive first.

[Mike Bones]

Re: A question?

I want to see links to the Tahoe and Jeep. How about ones to the plane and boats, as well?

Todd had a nice post on how he detailed a Bugatti Veyron SS, right here on MOL and easy to find.

[gsx62391]

Re: A question?

ok Bill, i just went outside and did a quick video of my neighbors dirty *** van. Just to help with the way your filming. The van is a 2007, never paint corrected, never protected, never even waxed. It hasn't been washed in a couple of weeks. I even borrowed a cheap camera and lowered the resolution to its lowest to try to mimic the best i could to your videos.
In order to reveal the swirls to the naked eye, you must find the source of light through the reflection of the paint, and then track that glare across the finish. If you hide the light source then it hides the swirls. Also try to have the reflection that you are tracking on a flat surface not any angled surfaces because you want the light to refract off the surface directly into your eye, not all over the place. do a video where you are purposely tracking the light source in an attempt to actually try to find the swirl and then we can better evaluate the performance of this product. here is the link to the video i just made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRJvmM24nAw

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

We know that Dawn will remove any wax on the car but we also know that it cannot remove a polymer sealant, acrylic, or PTFE.


Clearly, you do not. As I have said far too many times you are comparing apples with oranges. Dawn will not remove this product. Many of you continue to make these statements as fact, but it is just your assumption.

This car was waxed. You say it was to cover up damage from a washing which is
pure assumption. I washed the Jeep and Tahoe with Dawn in the sunlight, and no swirls. The jeep was filmed in direct sunlight. Look at the hood? How could I hide
them if they were there?

You are all fixed on one area of one video to make your point, but there are 3 other cars you virtually ignore. I really do not know how much clearer I could film this to show
that there are no swirls.


It seems you are the ones arguing with me. You ask questions or make statements, and if I respond back I am arguing with you. It seems you want me to agree with you, but that is not the purpose of a forum.