A question?

[billd55]

Re: A question?

What the answer suggests, however, is that stains, water spots, and (certain) smears can damage the clear coat if not removed quickly. Nothing more, nothing less.[/QUOTE]


I suggest you look up the word "smear":

1. spread something over surface: to spread something liquid or greasy over a surface, or be spread over a surface.

All I am saying is that it seems logicallythat wax can distort when it breaks down causing fine scratches to be seen in the finish, and may not be in the clear coat itself.Some maybe are, but a few people here are implying they all are which seems to be just their opinion.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

A wax alone will not remove swirls, you need correction, with for example the Ultimate Compound using an orbital polisher, then applying a polish, then a wax.

I'm confused here. 1. Micheal Stoop's says this:In fact, in our carnauba wax we utilize detergent resistant polymers to help with the longevity of the wax, to prevent it from simply being washed away.2.Murri1525 says: a 'layer' of wax is barely even there. Dont over-estimate what a wax can do... Its not like a clear bra. Also this statement:Swirls are places where something abrasive has come along and physically removed enough material to change how the light reflects, and you see the swirl. There just isnt enough wax there to make a physical barrier against abrasion.3. 3Fitty
says this:Swirl marks are in the clear has nothing to do with the wax.

Now this quote Markbaja :

A wax alone will not remove swirls, you need correction, with for example the Ultimate Compound using an orbital polisher, then applying a polish, then a wax.

This will remove swirls, trust me, I've done it to my two cars


Ok, If wax is barely there, and swirl marks are caused from something abrasive coming in contact with the clear coat,and not from the wax. I would assume that
using a product like Ultimate Compound would create swirl marks and not remove
them from what some have written here. I believe this product is an abrasive in nature and removes a layer of clear coat. Also, from what I have read on polishes
they are not permanent either.

So my question is this: Why bother waxing my car at all. I have to use a mild soap
so I will not strip the wax off. I can not layer the product acording to Micheal Stoops. It really offers nothing more than shine and beading water, and as Murri1525
says ont over-estimate what a wax can do.Finally, Markbaja says:A wax alone will not remove swirls, you need correction which means I have to use an abrasive which will add more swirls to my paint. I am missing something here? I want to protect
my paint, not slowly destroy it.

[3Fitty]

Re: A question?

How can you say all swirls are in the clear, or say unwaxed cars have swirls marks?
The wax is on top of the clear coat. It does not bond to the clear coat, and it is greasy in nature. I remember years ago when people said not to use spray wax for your furniture too often because of wax build up. Why could that not be a problem with cars finishes also?

I'm having a hard time believing you are actually asking serious questions.

[TH0001]

Re: A question?

The question does not imply that whatsoever. The question implies nothing, it is straight forward, I suggest you look up the definition of the word "imply".

What the answer suggests, however, is that stains, water spots, and (certain) smears can damage the clear coat if not removed quickly. Nothing more, nothing less.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote from Mequiar's website:

4. How can I remove fresh stains, water spots, and smears on my car's finish?

The best way to get rid of fresh stains, water spots and smears is to remove them as quickly as possible, before they have a chance to bake into the paint or cause permanent damage.

This question implies that car wax can smear, or is the clear coat finish itself which does not seem likely IMO.

[Markbaja]

Re: A question?

I think your not quite understanding wax as such. It's not like bees wax that permanently sits on your car forever, going hard and being able to be scratched. It's only microns thin, and will wash off with rains etc, leaving a bare clear coat. These are the swirls and scratches. But, you can give this a try for your own piece of mind if you like.

Wash a panel on your car a few times, removing any waxes, and see if you see swirls. If so, and after removing your wax, you still see them, then there in your clear.

A wax alone will not remove swirls, you need correction, with for example the Ultimate Compound using an orbital polisher, then applying a polish, then a wax.

This will remove swirls, trust me, I've done it to my two cars. And about to do it to a mates Monaro tomorrow morning.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

Waxed cars, unwaxed cars can both have swirl marks.

Swirl marks are in the clear has nothing to do with the wax.


How can you say all swirls are in the clear, or say unwaxed cars have swirls marks?
The wax is on top of the clear coat. It does not bond to the clear coat, and it is greasy in nature. I remember years ago when people said not to use spray wax for your furniture too often because of wax build up. Why could that not be a problem with cars finishes also?

[wifpd4]

Re: A question?

Well if that was the case IMO, then there should not be enough of a physical barrier to add shine, or beading water either. Why is it that cars that are not waxed do not have problems with swirl marks?

Watch some of the Meguiar's videos. Especially the ones where they mask off sections of a hood to make a pattern. The beading is then very obvious in the waxed versus unwaxed areas.

In my opinion, wax is like a transparent mirror. Reflecting and shining, but showing whats below it.

[Mike Bones]

Re: A question?

The only way to test out theory on this is to take a heavily swirled vehicle, document it, do a full correction, document it, wax, document it, let time pass and then strip the wax protection on it to see if swirls appear on the clear coat. If you're willing to test out your theory, I'm quite sure you'll get the answers you seek.

[3Fitty]

Re: A question?

Why is it that cars that are not waxed do not have problems with swirl marks?

Waxed cars, unwaxed cars can both have swirl marks.

Swirl marks are in the clear has nothing to do with the wax.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

Because the swirls remain after the wax is gone, means the swirls were not in the wax.

You are assuming that the wax is gone, but how do you know that for sure? Wax does not bond to the paint, it sticks. It can smear and distort the shine by washing with a harsh soap.

Quote:
Swirls are places where something abrasive has come along and physically removed enough material to change how the light reflects, and you see the swirl.

That is correct. When a wash mit, or a towel comes in contact with the wax layer
it removes some of the wax which creates the fine scratches.

Quote:

There just isnt enough wax there to make a physical barrier against abrasion.

Well if that was the case IMO, then there should not be enough of a physical barrier to add shine, or beading water either. Why is it that cars that are not waxed do not have problems with swirl marks?

[Murr1525]

Re: A question?

First, I am not saying that there could not be scratches in the clear coat, but it appears you assume they all are .

I guess it is pretty safe to say everyone here assumes they are...

Second, your logic that a Dawn wash should remove the majority of the swirls does not make sense. From what I see most detailers let the soap just sit on the surface
believing that the soap will remove the wax, and from what I understand a claybar is not designed to remove wax.

I think you mis-read that part. Mike is saying if the swirls were in the wax, then Dawn or clay or a cleaner/wax would remove the wax, and thus remove the swirls.

Because the swirls remain after the wax is gone, means the swirls were not in the wax.

You assume a car is waxed four times a year,and the wax wears off given time. Although ,that is not always the case. Many people are using products with a polycharger additive that resist break down from harsh soap washes, and follow it up with several coats of wax. Also, it appears that many people apply several
wax coats at one time . Finally,cars that have wax applied do not use Dawn to wash their cars, but a very mild soap that will not strip the wax.

This goes back to that the coat of wax is barely there. Even a brand new fresh coat is barely there. Some people have even registered here in the past asking if wax will protect against rock chips. Waxing your car is just not a physical barrier, like a clear bra would be.

Although, let's consider this thought. The average person waxes his car, and the next day it rains and water spots appear. Are these spots on the clear coat itself,
or on the top part of the wax layer? Is the clearcoat itself damaged. No, but you see the spots.

Dust sits on the car, and if it rains forms rings that sit on the car. (not counting hard water, acid rain, etc with chemical etching going on)

Swirls are places where something abrasive has come along and physically removed enough material to change how the light reflects, and you see the swirl. There just isnt enough wax there to make a physical barrier against abrasion.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

Now, as to whether or not the swirls you're seeing are in the wax and not in the paint, consider this: if they were just in the wax, then a Dawn wash and clay treatment should remove the vast majority of them. They don't. Not even close. And if they didn't get all of the swirls out, a simple cleaner wax would. It doesn't. Not even close.

First, I am not saying that there could not be scratches in the clear coat, but it appears you assume they all are .

Second, your logic that a Dawn wash should remove the majority of the swirls does not make sense. From what I see most detailers let the soap just sit on the surface
believing that the soap will remove the wax, and from what I understand a claybar is not designed to remove wax.

You assume a car is waxed four times a year,and the wax wears off given time. Although ,that is not always the case. Many people are using products with a polycharger additive that resist break down from harsh soap washes, and follow it up with several coats of wax. Also, it appears that many people apply several
wax coats at one time . Finally,cars that have wax applied do not use Dawn to wash their cars, but a very mild soap that will not strip the wax.


Quote:

And if they didn't get all of the swirls out, a simple cleaner wax would. It doesn't. Not even close.


I really do not see how a cleaner wax would remove them either. You mention that you do not believe in layering wax, and I agree with that.

Although, let's consider this thought. The average person waxes his car, and the next day it rains and water spots appear. Are these spots on the clear coat itself,
or on the top part of the wax layer? Is the clearcoat itself damaged. No, but you see the spots.

If you use a car soap the wax will not strip right away, but over time it will. As it does, slowly these fine scratches will appear from washing. These are caused from a wash mit, or towel drying IMO. Is the wax or sealant gone? No, but I do not agree
that a Dawn wash, and claying a car will completely remove either.

[Murr1525]

Re: A question?

As mentioned by Mike, a 'layer' of wax is barely even there. Dont over-estimate what a wax can do... Its not like a clear bra. If you do 20 layers, you arent going to get a 1/4" inch of wax buildup, its still just barely there.

And yeah, the swirls in new cars are in the paint.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

You wont get a scratch or swirl in the wax, if that is what you mean. It will be in the paint.
__________________


How do you know that for sure? I have seen many before pics of brand
new cars that are full of scratches. Are these in the paint?