A question?

[ffboy]

Re: A question?

Hahaha, this is getting a bit crazy. But if i may just add, whatever type of detailing anyone does whether everyday consumer level hand applied or professional level requiring rotary buffers to simple wash and wax regimes to mild correcting to swirl concealing, etc, all require proper steps to get the ideal results. Swilrlmarks, scratches, imperfections will occur if any of the steps taken were done poorly. Those are the facts, nothing will change that.

If we think about it, a car's paint whether single stage or not, is thicker and a lot tougher and more durable than a coat or coats of car wax or any polymer/acrylic sealant. A bare metal panel will less likely to corrode or tarnish with a coat of paint than a coat of "miracle sealant".. So if the coat of paint (which is thicker, tougher, and more durable) will have swirls with poor maintenance techniques, what more with an even thinner, microscopic layer of wax?

I've been able to compare some sealants and waxes in terms of "swirl mark resistance", Carlack 68 twins, collinite 845, 476s, FX synwax and NXT 2.0. Carlack 68 is supposed to be the most swirl resistant, but surprise surprise... results were virtually identical.

[Mike Bones]

Re: A question?

Omg... Just let this thread die already. The fact this thread hasn't been locked is puzzling to me. Clearly, everyone has agreed to disagree. There is no point to argue anymore. Especially when the OP seems to be set in his practice. We don't need to listen to him. All we have to do is respect his opinion.

Bill, you seem like a nice guy. But you also come off like that pushy financial manager at a dealership trying to sell me I need something I don't want. Just saying...

[billd55]

Re: A question?

If you want to see what swirl marks look like that have been caused by bad washing, look at your videos.
__________________


Todd where are these swirl marks you see on the jeep and tahoe? You are like a broken record saying the same thing over and over. The Ford Expediton was done to make a point. That I can wash a 2001 with Dawn and water well after 6 months since the last application. By the way, that vehicle was not done when new.Clearly, it is not close to any before correction pic you show on your shine and show section.


What puzzles me is that you have not used this product, but you appear to be an
expert. Just because you are a moderator on truth in detailing does not make you all knowing. Also, I thought you were done with me, and were out of here.


Quote:


Why is this so hard for you to understand!!!! Swirls are scratches in the paint. Repeat that 1000x1000x10000x1000 times.

If you don't scratch the paint then the swirl marks won't be there, period (wax, sealant, coating, polymer, acrylic, whatever). Again, why is this so hard to understand?

Ok, here is a perfect example from your website of why you are wrong.

Quote from the post:

This is a friends car that the dealership trashed with a combination hand wash and wax application during the vehicle prep.


I have heard a million times that wax does not cause swirls. Well, clearly this is a brand new car, and the detailer clearly states this:the dealership trashed with a combination hand wash and wax application during the vehicle prep. No mention that
a polisher was used. You can see the wax in the crevices. Now, are you going to tell me that amount of damage was caused by a simple washing ,and it is in the clear coat . If yes, I am not buying it unless they washed it with sand paper.

Clearly, the washing smeared the wax, and it has harden. Now, if you cannot see this, you do not want to. If you think the new vehicles treated with the product I use look anything like this you need to get your eyes checked.

http://truthindetailing.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=6297

[David Fermani]

Re: A question?

You guys are wasting valuable brain cells debating common sense reality with this guy. He's been banned from multiple forums venting and shilling about how his miracle acrylic sealants can do this and do that making all other's factual opinions worthless in his skewed mind. At the end of the day how can any sane person keep arguing this idiocy?

This is clearly and this person should be

[gsx62391]

Re: A question?

Never mind, he clearly is not getting it. Ill stick with Meguiers M20.
By the way, the product he speaks of says on the label that it could last up to 5 years if reapplied monthly.
PTFE, Polymer, ****** for paint sealants are the same thing. You haven't discovered a miracle product. We have been using this for years. Only difference is you are using them as a replacement for paint correction. And your wrong when you think a car from the factory is in untouched condition. Some highend auto makers run every car on a track and a wash before plastic and shipping. As far as a car from the dealership being in perfect condition? You have got to be off your rocker if thats what you believe. After the dealer takes delivery the first thing they do is wash it. Then as it sits on the lot it gets the rinse method often as needed. They dont sell dirty cars. They hire someone to drive through the lot and spray rinse and speed dry every car as needed. Definitly need paint correction after that.

[3Fitty]

Re: A question?

HOLY COW... I finally caved on watched the first video. David pointed out the 2 minute 10 second mark... LOL LOL LOL!!!!

He got the video camera out of there in a hurry!!! LOL

Oh my goodness... worst marketing video EVER for a "prevent swirls" product. About the only good thing in that video was the HOT IS-F!!!

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

But how is this product any different than all the other polymer paint sealants on the market?


First, this product bonds to the clearcoat and seals it. The others you mention do not. If you protect the surface of the clear coat you eliminate damage that requires
polishing. You do not get dark spots from treesap, bug and acid rain etching , or water spots after a rain.

You can truly wash your car with this product. The reason I use Dawn is because I want to clean the finish of my car, and not worry about removing the product or making swirls in my finish.

Todd mentioned he felt 99% of new cars require correction. I totally disagree with that statement. Granted , there are reasons for paint correction on new cars for reasons like orange peel, but I am one who believes that preserving the clear is far better than wearing it down.

I have applied this product to many brand new cars, and years later they are mostly defect free, and the shine remains because the clear coat has had little wear. That jeep and tahoe are four years old, and they do not need any product to cover swirl marks or some damage.

The reason why most think what I saying is crazy is because they base their knowledge on existing products, but this product is nothing like these products.
I have no problem correcting a surface that needs it, but how many times is too much. Using these products for so-called protection leads to correction plain and simple. If you start correction on brand new cars, how long will it take before you cannot do it anymore safely. Then what do you do then to fix defects?

That is why I use this product. If a car needs some correction that is fine, but in the
future it will not be needed. You do not need to strip this product for application, just a clean surface. It restores the shine equal to any wax, but offers real protection.
I can only relate 17 years of experience using this product, and what I have seen
over many years.

[TH0001]

Re: A question?

How do I prevent swirl mark? Well the answer is simple. If you use wax they are a fact of life.

Why is this so hard for you to understand!!!! Swirls are scratches in the paint. Repeat that 1000x1000x10000x1000 times.

If you don't scratch the paint then the swirl marks won't be there, period (wax, sealant, coating, polymer, acrylic, whatever). Again, why is this so hard to understand?

If you want to see what swirl marks look like that have been caused by bad washing, look at your videos.

[TH0001]

Re: A question?

Quote:

The product he speaks of is a paint sealant, not even the same category as a wax. so why compare it to a wax?


Someone finally gets it.

Wrong Bill. Everybody gets it but you. YOU are the one that keeps bringing up car waxes.

Many of you here are so hung up on before and after pics of correction details,and how well it shines and beads water. Although, no one has a clue what that vehicle looks like six months later.

Wrong Bill. You ASSUME we don't know what our clients cars look like in 6 months. Most of my clients are long term and I see there cars every 3 to 6 months.

Well, Dave has so nicely posted my videos
which show 4 vehicles that have been done since they were new, and have never once had a wheel on them.

Since you have done them since new, how do you explain the swirl marks ALL over them? Remember you are claiming your product resists swirl marks, but every car you have ever posted has SWIRL MARKS.


What is interesting is that my flip camera is not good enough when you cannot find something, but perfect when you can find one spot on one video.

What many of you cannot figure out is that I am trying to prevent paint defects, not correct them. What really confuses me about people who use wax is that they think
wax provides really protection, but it does not. It may offer a barrier, but it will not stop things like salt, bugs, or tree sap from doing damage if not removed quickly.

Wrong Bill. We have figured out that you don't know anything about paint defects and your lack of knowledge in this area is probably why you are not very qualified to prevent the defects.

For evidence I point you to the POOR condition of the paint in the cars you have posted in which sunlight is visible. Those swirl marks are scratches in the paint that your product OBVIOUSLY didn't protect against...

Instead of hyping this product why not do research on true paint coatings, such as Optimum Opit-Guard? I have seen it bead water 18 months after application and help prevent bug etching.

o one here has used this product, but many people say I do not know what I am talking about. I have never once accused anyone on forums that they did not know what they were talking about when it came to wax or correction. Although, that happens all the time when it comes to my knowledge of this product. I guess 17 years means nothing.

17 years can just as easy mean 3 months experience x 64. You might have 17 years experience but look at the videos of the cars you have posted. They look terrible and damaged, yet by your 17 years of experience they look good. This is why your experience is discounted.

I'm 31, my dad had me wax his (new) Grand Prix with Turtle Wax when I was 12. There for I have 19 years of experience waxing cars.

Being 56 years old I am not detailing as much, but I have a group of loyal customers who drive their cars everyday. The do not want to worry about having to wash their cars a certain way, but want their paint protected from the elements.

Fine, but again I suggest you look at Opti-Coat/Guard. You only apply it once and we have washed it with degreaser, acid, and dawn, and it still beads water. So it seems it is superior to your product in terms of element protection. Not only that, but it will actually help prevent (slightly) new swirl marks.

They come to me once or twice a year, and it takes 3-4 hours to do a total detail.
Basically, At-5 is what the dealerships sell for a huge mark up, but they make one huge mistake. They do not educate the customer that the product has to be applied
once a year, and the price charged is toooo much in my opinion. Although, the product is awesome.

Again there are products that do more and have to be applied less (since we are no longer talking about just waxes).

[TH0001]

Re: A question?

I watched all the videos posted and Yes, there are definitely swirl marks in the paint.

Exactly. The cars are a mess! It's shocking that Bill is talking about how his cars don't have swirls and how he cannot see them, yet they are visible in his cars....

Maybe Bill just doesn't see the swirl marks?

[gsx62391]

Re: A question?

So my question is, why compare it to a wax which has no paint correction and little protection values. It is mostly an enhancer. But how is this product any different than all the other polymer paint sealants on the market?
A polymer paint sealant is in a different class than a wax as far as protection is concerned. And in my experience adds a lot of shine, but the wax adds the depth and helps to enhance the color, That is why i like to add wax on top of polymer sealant for those properties that wax provides. But at the same time, applying a polymer protectant to the surface of the paint without a proper paint correction first will not remove the swirls. It will hide a lot of the minor ones by filling them but the larger ones will still be there.Try just putting a coat of that on a show car without correcting any defects first and your customer will not be happy when the judges pick out every defect one by one.
Applying a polymer paint protection is a great product but by no means is it a replacement for removal of swirls. Without first correcting that paints surface of defects all you are doing is filling in the smaller ones. It may good enough for your customers to apply the product and cover up the problem as opposed to first fixing the problem first and then using the polymer paint protection for what is is meant for. To protect a perfect surface. Not to protect a "good enough for the average consumers" surface.
There are a lot of my customers where you could get away with it because they are uneducated or don't really care. But I personally don't like to take shortcuts or trick my customers. I actually take pride in the finished results. On all of your videos where you pick out the spots that you call "scratches" and are really heavy swirl marks that the product didn't fill, would not even be there anymore had you have properly corrected the paints surface before applying the product. the product you endorse so highly is probably a great product for what it is meant for. without bringing the paints surface to its most pristine condition first, you are only protecting a mediocre finish. Why not make the paint near perfect first for even better results?

[billd55]

Re: A question?

3Fitty - Now recommending products I have never used.

This statement makes no sense. Is this a joke?

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:
Because you are asking people to believe that a microscopic layer of "protection" can prevent swirls as though it is some magic bullet. Or that it might prevent high acid bird poop etching after it has been left on a car for days.

Sorry, but there is no other way but to say, I don't believe you. That's really it.


That is your choice. The reason why you do not see wax swirls on the video examples is because this product actually bonds to the clear coat. Most clear coats
are acrylic poly ureathanes, and this product is a true acrylic product that bonds to the paint which actually protects the surface. It is not a wax that is mixed with a polymer additive(polycharger).

Actually, I have left bird poop on my cars for days, and it has never etched once.

On this and many forums the same question is asked over and over:
How do I prevent swirl mark? Well the answer is simple. If you use wax they are a fact of life. Sure, you can use proper washing methods to help limit them, but that is it. You will have to use correction methods to cover or remove them, but you will never prevent them no matter what new wax , or polish you use. If that was not the case, then this same question would not be continued to be asked .

[3Fitty]

Re: A question?

Because you are asking people to believe that a microscopic layer of "protection" can prevent swirls as though it is some magic bullet. Or that it might prevent high acid bird poop etching after it has been left on a car for days.

Sorry, but there is no other way but to say, I don't believe you. That's really it.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

The product he speaks of is a paint sealant, not even the same category as a wax. so why compare it to a wax?


Someone finally gets it.



I would like to see anyone here take a car that was waxed six months ago, and wash it with well water and Dawn and compare it to the green expedition in the video.

Many of you here are so hung up on before and after pics of correction details,and how well it shines and beads water. Although, no one has a clue what that vehicle looks like six months later. Well, Dave has so nicely posted my videos
which show 4 vehicles that have been done since they were new, and have never once had a wheel on them.

What is interesting is that my flip camera is not good enough when you cannot find something, but perfect when you can find one spot on one video.

What many of you cannot figure out is that I am trying to prevent paint defects, not correct them. What really confuses me about people who use wax is that they think
wax provides really protection, but it does not. It may offer a barrier, but it will not stop things like salt, bugs, or tree sap from doing damage if not removed quickly.

No one here has used this product, but many people say I do not know what I am talking about. I have never once accused anyone on forums that they did not know what they were talking about when it came to wax or correction. Although, that happens all the time when it comes to my knowledge of this product. I guess 17 years means nothing.

Being 56 years old I am not detailing as much, but I have a group of loyal customers who drive their cars everyday. The do not want to worry about having to wash their cars a certain way, but want their paint protected from the elements.

They come to me once or twice a year, and it takes 3-4 hours to do a total detail.
Basically, At-5 is what the dealerships sell for a huge mark up, but they make one huge mistake. They do not educate the customer that the product has to be applied
once a year, and the price charged is toooo much in my opinion. Although, the product is awesome.

Like many of you here I did not believe the claims at first, but after using the product
for a short period I was convinced. I hear people on these forums talk about durability and protection as being the same thing,but they are not.