Lemon Law for Defective Paint

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

For what it's worth...

About the only way to keep a clear coat finish swirl free is to not touch the paint, this means parking the car in a garage, covering it with a quality car cover or soft blanket and let it sit.

If you do this you won't get any swirls and scratches because the paint won't see any use let alone wear and tear.

Clear coat paints tend to be harder than traditional single stage paints but they still scratch very easily and because the scratch is in a clear layer of paint over a color coat, the swirls and scratches show up very easily to our eyes. Because the clear coat is hard, (see first sentence in this paragraph), it's hard for you and me to remove the swirls and scratches.

This is why this forum, our products and tools like the DA Polisher are so popular and thats because we as a company cater to people who love their cars but don't want the swirls. We do our best to educate people the above, (clear coat paints are hard and scratch easily), and how to remove them and more important how to prevent them. This all takes a lot of work and constant maintenance and care on your side in that for the most part if you want a swirl free finish then you have to take ownership of the washing process and many people don't want to do this, so the clear layer of paint gets swirls and scratches and thats how things are.

To the fault of car manufactures, as far as I know they don't tell paint manufactures that one of the things they're looking for in a paint system for the cars they manufactures are paints that,

A. Don't swirl and scratch easily.

B. When they do swirl and scratch, the AVERAGE person, with average skills can remove them


So maybe your lawsuit will start ALL car manufactures down the road of applying paints to their cars that are a lot more users friendly as compared to what they give us now.

One more note...

It's possible that your Nissan actually does have a clear coat paint that's new technology and dramatically different than all the other clear paints on the market, if this is the case then perhaps repainting using a more traditional basecoat/clearcoat paint system will help with the swirl and scratch problem. Maybe.

If the paint system they're using is much like most of the other basecoat/clearcoat systems on the market then repainting isn't going to solve the problem. Clear coat paints scratch easily and the scratches are easy to see.

Welcome to basecoat/clearcoat technology.


While working on older single stage paints is a bit more messy because the color of the car comes off onto your applicator pads, buffing pads and polishing cloths, at least older single stage paints tend to be easier to work on for the average person.

Best of luck to you...

[davidw]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Thank you for taking the time to clarify. I really appreciate it and it makes total sence. What gets me is that I see other black cars ( other mfg's ) that have very little swirlage compared to mine but I guess as you state, the technology may differ.
I will post as the LL suit progresses.

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Good luck as you resolve this issue. I liked Nick's advice about using this forum to properly educate yourself about swirls and scratches. Hoe to minimize their occurrence, etc. These swirls were probably due to the dealer improperly prepping your car. I would think that Nissan and the dealer would want to work this out together. It is a shame how you had to sue to get relief. Whatever happened to customer service after the sale? Good luck.

[roushstage2]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

I hope Im in the right forum for this:

I have a LL suit against Nissan for horrible paint on 2008 Armada.
Nothing but zillions of swirls and spider webbing over entire vehicle ( black ). I've complained since day one and Nissan has agreed to let me have it repaired by a local shop. It was a 3 step polishing job that lasted for 1 month then the swirls came back. The shop did the process again. Swirls came right back.. I was told that it is scratches in the clear coat. After further complaints to Nissan, they basically told me to go away so I filed a lemon law suit for the issue. The arbitrator ruled in my favor saying that the paint job IS defective and Nissan has 30 days to correct problem. What could they actually do to fix this. I was told that if they did a repaint ( which they hav not offered yet ) the value of the car would be greatly deminished. Is there a permanent cure for my problem...
I've read some other threads about swirls but I'm not confident that Nissan has the knowledge to repair. Any feedback is welcome....

Are you sure the detail shop didn't just fill the swirls in? If they were filled, the filler will generally wash away and the swirls will come back. If the scratches are in the clear coat, that comes from improper technique. Paint look anything like this?

Originally posted:
Ferrari 550 Maranello, SHES A SHINEY NOW!
Superior Shine

If so, a repaint will only fix that until someone who uses improper technique and dirty supplies touches the paint again, such as probably 99.9% of those "hand wash" places. The paint may actually be worse of because they may use a paint that swirls even easier than what is on there now! Suing anyone and having them repaint you car is not right, IMO, because it is not their fault that the people touching your car don't know how to properly fix the problem or cause it from happening.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Thank you for taking the time to clarify. I really appreciate it and it makes total sense. What gets me is that I see other black cars ( other mfg's ) that have very little swirlage compared to mine but I guess as you state, the technology may differ.
I will post as the LL suit progresses.

My friend and a Professional Detailer on the East Coast, Lenny House recently had a real bad experience with a 2008 Infinity G35

Nothing they used on it would create a 100% swirl free finish and the owner of the car was upset.

My recommendation and Lenny's recommendation was to take the car with it's paint job back to the dealership and as the dealership to "demonstrate" how a person was supposed to use the recommended products to remove the swirls and create a 100% swirl free finish.

Last I heard the dealership wouldn't do it and my guess is the reason they wouldn't do it was because they knew they couldn't do it, especially in front of a trained professional detailer.

The swirl problems everyone has with their new cars can almost always be traced back to the paint systems. If enough consumers voice their opinions maybe someday paint manufactures will start making paints for car manufactures that the average person can work on successfully.

Until then... :wall :wall :wall

[davidw]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Are you sure the detail shop didn't just fill the swirls in? If they were filled, the filler will generally wash away and the swirls will come back. If the scratches are in the clear coat, that comes from improper technique. Paint look anything like this?

Originally posted:
Ferrari 550 Maranello, SHES A SHINEY NOW!
Superior Shine

If so, a repaint will only fix that until someone who uses improper technique and dirty supplies touches the paint again, such as probably 99.9% of those "hand wash" places. The paint may actually be worse of because they may use a paint that swirls even easier than what is on there now! Suing anyone and having them repaint you car is not right, IMO, because it is not their fault that the people touching your car don't know how to properly fix the problem or cause it from happening.

THX.. But as I stated, car came that way and I've been complaining since delivery.

[Nick Chapman]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

I guess we all don't see eye to eye on this subject. You're are doing nothing more than going after the group with the deepest pockets. Your fight is with the detailing company that the dealership hired at best, not Nissan Motor Corp.

A comparable situation would be me, as a detailer, using Meguiar's products. I recently had a situation where APC+ had a negative reaction to a customers seats. This reaction cause the color to change on the black seats.
Here is a picture...


Should Meguiar's be responsible? No, it's my own fault. In your case, Nissan Motor Corp did nothing wrong here, the dealership did nothing wrong here, however the detailers that the dealership hired(most dealerships hire an outside company to take care of their vehicles) would be the ones directly responsible. But no one has mentioned them?

Swirls will happen reguardless of how well you take care of your vehicle. Just like brakes will wear out on your vehicle no matter what. It's all part of owning a vehicle.


Like I said, I guess we all don't see eye to eye on this. I just don't agree with the actions that have taken place. Kind of like sueing McDonalds because your coffee was too hot and you spilled it on yourself....

[3Fitty]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Like I said, I guess we all don't see eye to eye on this. I just don't agree with the actions that have taken place. Kind of like sueing McDonalds because your coffee was too hot and you spilled it on yourself....

Sorry Nick, can't let the second biggest litigation myth pass without challenge.

Read the real story about the McDonald's case here http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0122-11.htm

You'll see that McDonalds was heating their coffee 30-50 degrees hotter than what it should've been because it extended the life of the coffee thereby increasing $$$.

[Nick Chapman]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Sorry Nick, can't let the second biggest litigation myth pass without challenge.

Read the real story about the McDonald's case here http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0122-11.htm

You'll see that McDonalds was heating their coffee 30-50 degrees hotter than what it should've been because it extended the life of the coffee thereby increasing $$$.

Coffee is hot, thats a no brainer. If you spill coffee on yourself, it's going to burn! <---another no brainer. If it was 30 degrees cooler, would it have not burned? I believe the results would have been the same. People in this world are all too happy to file a law suit over something rediculous.

My girlfriend is a flight attendant. She is required to wear a specific uniform, made out of a specific material. She was flying into LAX when the aircraft hit some turbulance, causing the aircraft coffee pot to spill onto her arm. The material her uniform was made out of melted and stuck to her skin, giving her severe burns to her upper and lower arm.
She was required to wear this unifom by company rules. Company has hot coffee. What was the result? Nothing. It was deemed an accident, and no one was to blame.

To me, my girlfriends case would have a lot more bearing than someone driving through McDonalds. After all, she was required to wear the uniform that melted to her skin.

[davidw]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

We'll have to agree to disagree.. I went to the dealer with my issue over and over. They never mentioned anything about an outside detail service.. They said " we've done all we could do ". So then who do I try to go to for results ? The dealer represents Nissan. If I've exhausted my attempts with the dealer, logic tells me that someone has to be responsible for the issue so Nissan CONSUMER AFFAIRS seemed to be the obviuos choice. THe are there to try to satisfy the customer. They tried and the results were the same. Nissan Consumer Affairs said to me "your own you own and do what you need to do ". It's certainly not my fault that a brand new vehicle is damaged and the dealer couldnt' help me. Anyway, we all have our own opinions and ideas and IMO I took the best course of action that I needed to.

[Nick Chapman]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

We'll have to agree to disagree.. I went to the dealer with my issue over and over. They never mentioned anything about an outside detail service.. They said " we've done all we could do ". So then who do I try to go to for results ? The dealer represents Nissan. If I've exhausted my attempts with the dealer, logic tells me that someone has to be responsible for the issue so Nissan CONSUMER AFFAIRS seemed to be the obviuos choice. THe are there to try to satisfy the customer. They tried and the results were the same. Nissan Consumer Affairs said to me "your own you own and do what you need to do ". It's certainly not my fault that a brand new vehicle is damaged and the dealer couldnt' help me. Anyway, we all have our own opinions and ideas and IMO I took the best course of action that I needed to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you should've or shouldn't of taken any action. What I'm saying is maybe you took action against the wrong group. What did Nissan Motor Corp do to hurt your vehicle? Nothing as far as I can see. When the vehicle left Nissan Motor Corp hands, it was in new condition. At best the detailer that the dealer hired should be at fault, and possibly the dealer itself. You had a choice when you filed.....Nissan Motor Corp, The Dealership or the detailer. You chose the group with the deepest pockets. Is that wrong? Not for me to say. I'm just giving you my take on things. Same as my customer above.....should they have gone after Meguiar's to seek compensation for their seats damage?

[davidw]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

I understand your point. The service manager at the dealer is the one who actually directed me to the consumer affairs. I think this case is still in early stages and the dealership is offering ( all of the sudden ) to try to fix it again. I dont think there will be any major loss or expense to the dealer or Nissan. I just want my truck to look the best it can. If I were in your neck of the woods, I'm sure you'd be able to take care of it..

[Nick Chapman]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

I understand your point. The service manager at the dealer is the one who actually directed me to the consumer affairs. I think this case is still in early stages and the dealership is offering ( all of the sudden ) to try to fix it again. I dont think there will be any major loss or expense to the dealer or Nissan. I just want my truck to look the best it can. If I were in your neck of the woods, I'm sure you'd be able to take care of it..

Give the dealership my number, and have them call me. I travel

Seriously, I do not believe that you are going to get the results that you are after, through the dealer. The dealership is going to take your vehicle back to the same company that they have in the past. This means they are going to use the same products/techniques that they have in the past. How will this make your future results any different?

Something you need to think about(and this may very well give you more grounds for your claim).

A vehicle only has so much clear coat. A factory clear coat is very thin! When you use a rotary buffer on a vehicles paint, you are removing clear coat. Your clear coat is your vehicles protection. UV rays will damage your vehicles paint. The less clear coat you have(your protection from damaging UV rays), the less time your vehicles paint will last. How many times can your vehicle be buffed before it causes damage? Thats hard to say. Depends on how aggressive the products they are using are, and how gentle the guy behind the buffer is being.


From what I gather, this will be the 3rd time your vehicle will be buffed. You're starting to get down pretty good. How old is your vehicle? Less than a year?

IMO, at this point you need to worry about having it done correctly, and not just run it through the buffer line again. You need to sit down and do some research on some of your local detailers. Find one that is going to treat you and your vehicle right, and have that detailer take care of the problem correctly. Do not rely on the dealership to do this for you anymore, as they are going to take the cheapest way out possible.

[davidw]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Nick,
purchased 12/07
I appreciate your feedback. I agree and I am not confident at all that the dealer will do the job right. You're correct in that the car has been in the shop twice and I AM very concerned about causing irreversable damage. I'm going to speak to the laywer and let him know that I am in contact with a professional in TX and that you strongly disagree with letting the dealer try again.

[Nick Chapman]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Nick,
purchased 12/07
I appreciate your feedback. I agree and I am not confident at all that the dealer will do the job right. You're correct in that the car has been in the shop twice and I AM very concerned about causing irreversable damage. I'm going to speak to the laywer and let him know that I am in contact with a professional in TX and that you strongly disagree with letting the dealer try again.

Did I just get myself involved