Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

[FROMCHRISSTEWART]

Microabrasive particle size

Question for Mike,

Are the size of the abrasive particles the same for all products, and the formulas call for higher percentage of such particles, or is the particle size for the microabrasives varying from most aggressive to least agressive?

Thank you,
Chris Stewart

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

I am just a little confused..

Is Mirror Glaze considered a "Consumer Product" ?

I am a newbie, and have never detailed a car before by myself. Will it be okay if I start using it?

Mirror Glaze is our Professional Line which is a line of products formulated and targeted at the the professional refinishing and reconditioning industries. Refinishing = re-painting or body shops, Reconditioning = detailing cars.

Can we find #105 and #205 at Autozone or Walmart ?

No. You need to locate and make friends with your nearest PBE store.

How to locate Meguiar's Professional and Detailer products in your hometown

Or order from an online vendor.

Question for Mike,

Are the size of the abrasive particles the same for all products, and the formulas call for higher percentage of such particles, or is the particle size for the micro-abrasives varying from most aggressive to least aggressive?

Thank you,
Chris Stewart

That's proprietary information and knowing the specific ingredients of a formula actually won't help you buff out a car because in the big picture you're going to do the 3 basics things we all do...

• Evaluate the condition of the finish
• Choose the right product
• Use good technique

Meguiar's teaches the philosophy of using the least aggressive product to get the job done so theoretically when you go out into your garage to work on your car you'll have at least one or two compounds, paint cleaners or cleaner/polishes to test out and then determine which one is giving you the best results. After you make this determination you continue using that product over the rest of the car. Knowing what's inside the bottle has nothing to do with a person either hand applying a product or machine applying the product because at this point the product has been chose based upon it's performance and now it's just down to using good technique as you work your way around your car.

What are you working on?
What are your car care goals?

[Bunky]

Re: Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

I had picked up some 105/205 at AG Detail Fest after seeing Mike's demo.

Mike said a typical clearcoat on a factory job was like 1 - 1.5 mils thick. How many times could one use M105 on a factory paint job without removing all the clear? I assume it could probably be done at least a few times....I am just thinking about safety margin...

Where is SwirlX2.0 on a scale of 1 to 10 compared to 83. The above chart shows above 83 in cut but no numerical indication.

I was thinking I should really try SwirlX (less aggressive approach) before jumping to 105 but it seems like everyone goes to 105 first now for any well swirled car. Or, would 2 passes of SwirlX remove the same amount of clear as one pass of 105.

[MyFirstES300]

Re: Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

Question: In order to determine what works best depending on what you are trying to accomplish, for example, using the M105/M205 combination, do you need to put M105 on and THEN put on M205 to see the results?

If you were trying to remove scratches, shouldn't just the use of M105 be enough to show if it is going to do the job without applying M205 to know if the combination works? I'm using M105/M205 just as an example, it could be any combination.

Have I confused anyone?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

Mike said a typical clearcoat on a factory job was like 1 - 1.5 mils thick. How many times could one use M105 on a factory paint job without removing all the clear? I assume it could probably be done at least a few times....I am just thinking about safety margin...

Wouldn't it be nice if the paint on a new car was just a little thicker to give us enthusiasts some room to work with over time, and of course, easy to work on?

The big picture idea is that after you do the initial detail job that afterwards, hopefully you or your customer takes better care of the car so it doesn't need to be continually buffed with an aggressive product, in fact in a perfect world if you're working on a scratched and swirled out car, after the first buffing session, any follow-up sessions would only need a light cleaner/polish like SwirlX or M205, not a full blown compounding.

Where is SwirlX.0 on a scale of 1 to 10 compared to 83. The above chart shows above 83 in cut but no numerical indication.

The numerical gauge or rating on our Professional Line bottles is just to give a person some kind of idea as to how aggressive the product is relative to the other products in the line.

Meguiar's purposefully does NOT add this kind of rating to our Consumer Line and instead we insure our Consumer Line is safe to use by the average person, (Bubba Proof), and we rely on our Customer Care Hotline Number, the label copy and this forum to help people select either,

Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner.
ScratchX in any version
SwirlX
Ultimate Compound

Since coming to work for Meguiar's at the Corporate office in 2002 I can't count how many times a member of this forum or some other forum will ask for a "List" of product ranked by their aggressiveness and it's more complicated than what most people think due to the different types of products, how they're supposed to be applied and the market they go into. So I'm confident people will continue to ask for this list and for a number rating on the Consumer Line bottles but it's not going to happen.

It's also not that complicated. It does require a person planning on taking care of their own cars or detailing either as a hobby or a business to pull out their wallet and invest in at least two scratch and swirl removers so this way they can test these products on the paint system they're working on and apply this philosophy,

"Use the least aggressive product to get the job done"

And of course, by doing this you'll remove the defects while leaving the most amount of paint on the car.

I was thinking I should really try SwirlX (less aggressive approach) before jumping to 105 but it seems like everyone goes to 105 first now for any well swirled car. Or, would 2 passes of SwirlX remove the same amount of clear as one pass of 105.

You know this is a great question but even if you did a controlled experiment and measured everything perfectly, your results will vary from paint system to paint system.

Our new SMAT products provide a very interesting new feature and that is unlike a diminishing abrasive product which you MUST work until all the diminishing abrasives have completely broken down or if you don't you could be inducing and leaving behind swirls, with the new SMAT products you can stop any time during the buffing cycle or hand application cycle and there should be no difference in results based upon how long you worked the product.

Once the defects are gone you can stop working the product. This throws a monkey wrench into this 100 year old philosophy of

"Use the least aggressive product to get the job done"

Because you can reach the same goal, (removing the defect while leaving the most amount of paint on the car), by starting with a more aggressive product and simply quick working it sooner, as you see the defects removed.

Meguiar's still promotes the idea of using the least aggressive product to get the job done but the above reason is why you see some people starting out with UC or M105 instead of something less aggressive in strength.

One thing for sure and that's the thing we beat the drum on all the time in this forum and that's to do a TEST SPOT before going over the entire car.

Hard to believe as long as we've been teaching this idea that we still have members joining, usually seeking help AFTER they've discovered problems with their results and sadly after they've went over the entire car without doing any testing at all.

Question: In order to determine what works best depending on what you are trying to accomplish, for example, using the M105/M205 combination, do you need to put M105 on and THEN put on M205 to see the results?

If it were me, in a garage, the first time I ever worked on your car, after washing, drying and claying, so now I have a clean car to start working on, assuming I inspected the finish in the sun and the paint has swirls and scratches I want to remove the first thing I would do is test M205 with a foam polishing pad on the 5.0 setting of a DA Polisher and work a small section. Wipe off the residue and inspect, if it looks good keep going with this system, if M205 wasn't aggressive enough then I would TEST M105, again using a DA Polisher, (or however I was intending on doing the work), a foam polishing pad and using the 5.0 speed setting.

After testing the M105 to a small section, (a different section than the M205 test section), I would wipe off the residue and inspect the results. If it looked LSP ready then that might be all I do, M105 and then go straight to wax.

If you like, you could at this point re-polish the M105 test section with the M205 and see if doing a second pass with less aggressive product improves the results. If it does then you could

M105 --> M205 --> Apply wax or a paint sealant

This is why sometimes it's important to push away from the keyboard and discussing a topic in the cyber world and actually going out into the garage and seeing what's what by actually working on a car.

If you were trying to remove scratches, shouldn't just the use of M105 be enough to show if it is going to do the job without applying M205 to know if the combination works? I'm using M105/M205 just as an example, it could be any combination.

Have I confused anyone?

Well you could do it that way or test the less aggressive product first and see if it's working. If the less aggressive product is getting the job done, why use the more aggressive product?

Again, you won't know until you actually start working on the car as ALL paint systems can be different in how polishable they re and you don't know until your bring your machine or your hand down onto the paint and start working a product.

It's good to type out questions on forum about hypothetical situations, but at some point the rubber needs to hit the road, push away from they keyboard, go buy some products and start doing some testing.

[Poneyxpres]

Re: Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

I have an observation.....

I just got my samples of M105 and M205 from ADS. I have UC, SwirlX, Scratch X 2.0 and the old Scratch X.

I am comparing the "gritness" feel of each of these on my fingers. To me, M105 and M205 have a clear feel of abrasive in them, where as the Ultimate Compound, SwirlX and Scratch X, both of them, have a cream feel to them like hand lotion does. I do detect a very small amount of abrasive in the Ultimate Compound but nothing like I do in the M205 which is supposed to have less cut then SwirlX.

I haven't done a side by side of the SwirlX and M205 but I am going to. Does Ultimate Compound, SwirlX or ScratchX have any filler in them?
I have been reading on another site that, after a 91% IPA wipe down, hazing and marring has been noted after using M105 or M205.

I am also reading that M205 is pad dependent, meaning it works well with some pads but not others. I can't list the pads as I didn't write them down and may haven't said what pads are working better or worse with others.

What are your thoughts and experiences so far?

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

I have an observation.....

I just got my samples of M105 and M205 from ADS. I have UC, SwirlX, Scratch X 2.0 and the old Scratch X.

I am comparing the "gritness" feel of each of these on my fingers. To me, M105 and M205 have a clear feel of abrasive in them, where as the Ultimate Compound, SwirlX and Scratch X, both of them, have a cream feel to them like hand lotion does. I do detect a very small amount of abrasive in the Ultimate Compound but nothing like I do in the M205 which is supposed to have less cut then SwirlX.

I haven't done a side by side of the SwirlX and M205 but I am going to. Does Ultimate Compound, SwirlX or ScratchX have any filler in them?
I have been reading on another site that, after a 91% IPA wipe down, hazing and marring has been noted after using M105 or M205.

I am also reading that M205 is pad dependent, meaning it works well with some pads but not others. I can't list the pads as I didn't write them down and may haven't said what pads are working better or worse with others.

What are your thoughts and experiences so far?

I know what "other site" you are referring to, and it was a single case to the best of my knowledge. M105 has been out for over a year now and any mentions of problems with it and fillers...then one thread gets started about 1 occurrence and people are scared that M105 is full of fillers.

It's not the case. Nor is it the case with M205.

ANY compound or polish could theoretically fill something, but neither M105 or M205 contain products intended to fill- these products are made to correct.

[CDN]

Re: Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

What are the best pad at Lake Country to make the finish with a DA and 205? CCS, flat pad?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

What are the best pad at Lake Country to make the finish with a DA and 205? CCS, flat pad?

When it comes to SMAT products it's probably more personal preference...

Personally I prefer flat faced pads.

[CDN]

Re: Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

Why? What is the difference that you noted between 2?

What is the difference with Lake Country Flat DA pad, VC DA pad and CCS DA pad with Meg 205?

[Poneyxpres]

Re: Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

I know what "other site" you are referring to, and it was a single case to the best of my knowledge. M105 has been out for over a year now and any mentions of problems with it and fillers...then one thread gets started about 1 occurrence and people are scared that M105 is full of fillers.

It's not the case. Nor is it the case with M205.

ANY compound or polish could theoretically fill something, but neither M105 or M205 contain products intended to fill- these products are made to correct.

Thanks for the info, I wasn't scared and I figured where better to come for the answer but MOL? You pretty much reinforced what had been said about the products not filling. I have tried the both 105 and 205 on a factory paint system and on a full repaint. Both worked great on the Factory paint, not so good on the repaint. Like has been stated before, do a test spot.

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

Thanks for the info, I wasn't scared and I figured where better to come for the answer but MOL? You pretty much reinforced what had been said about the products not filling. I have tried the both 105 and 205 on a factory paint system and on a full repaint. Both worked great on the Factory paint, not so good on the repaint. Like has been stated before, do a test spot.

No problem.

Like you found out, there are some paints that just don't play well with polishing. That's why I like to have many options in my bag of tricks...just in case. Generally speaking though, M86, M105, and M205 are all I need for paint correction work via rotary, and SwirlX and Ultimate Compound for DA work.

[Maserati Mario]

Re: Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

tag

[the_invisible]

Re: Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

According to MeguiarsAsia on Youtube, M205 is MORE aggressive than SwirlX.

Why is such claim made by such group of entity? Is there any truth to that?



Also, if I were to polish a surface after compounding, which is the best product to use if the paint is VERY hard? SwirlX or M205? Assuming I will be using a polishing pad, not a cutting pad.

Would M205 have the cutting power of polishing hard paint surfaces???

[sontakke]

Re: Aggressiveness Order for New Consumer Products - This will surprise you!

=============== Quote =======
Please remember that this is a relative comparison assuming all other factors are the same, for example if all products were applied with the same machine, same speed setting, same downward pressure, same buffing cycle, (length of time product is >buffed), same paint panel, same temperature, etc.
================
What about type of applicator foam/terry/microfiber etc? I thought these products need different types of applicators.

Thanks,
- Vikas