Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

[Top Gear]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

First, let's remember the problem is this car was neglected for a very long time and has multiple layers or types of defects. In terms of maintenance, these are the types of damage we are trying our best to avoid using various washing and detailing techniques, although rock chips/rashes are inevitable from driving. In terms of correction, what works for one type of defect is pointless for another, and those of us commenting have different experiences and comfort levels. You ask great questions, too, NYShine!

Spiderwebs: So, the spiderweb and swirl marks are among the easier problems you have. Those should be quick enough work with M105, and I would go over the whole car. Followed by an equally thorough polish step with perhaps two or more passes, and then a wax/sealant step, this typical correction process will solve a LOT of the superficial defects and yield a stunning black finish. This will also allow you to see and evaluate the remaining defects in a whole new light.

Etchings: Next up, you have deeper etchings. Some etchings, or parts of etchings, will come out or be faded down just from the M105 passes, but some will still be there after you've made it through the waxing. In some of those cases, I have suggested a bit of very careful sanding and filling, but I'd evaluate that after being done with the regular correction above. Some of the spots may be addressable by filling them with a bit of paint/clear and then finely polishing to reduce their appearance, some of them you may decide aren't worth worry.

Chips: Next again, you have rock chips and other types of chips that seem to go right to primer and/or bare metal. These are very common and cannot be fixed with any DA polishing technique. Unless you're going to machine sand and airbrush matching paint and clear like a paint blender would, the only way to repair them (or hide them) without repainting is to do spot repairs. As I've said, I use a paint pen along with sanding techniques with 1500/3000, and then I use compound to pull out the sanding marks.

For me, and not least because I'm dealing with black paint, some chips I've been able to make completely disappear, others not so much - that is, perhaps a crater remains that I can later work on again - but at least the metal is protected, and they are matching black spots instead of grey/white ones. Again, sanding techniques are something you need to read up on and test. Here is a very helpful thread from our very own Meg's guru Michael Stoops: http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums...ht=chip+repair

The technique I use is very similar to his, but I've not used Dr. Color Chip or others. I've either used drops of actual matching paint I got from a paint guy using a very fine art brush, or when that ran out, a standard black paint pen which has a fine tip as well as clear. I tend to prefer the matching paint and brush method, as the paint pens can be very fiddly. The sanding afterward is not necessarily required, and the softer paint blobs will wear down over the course of continuing DA work over the months and years, but sanding helps blend and level the fill.

Re-Painting: You can spend $500 or less and have the worst spots "blended", a mobile service you can find through your dealer, or you can pay $3000 or more and have the entire car repainted. Either way, you can either have perfection or a hack job, and that's a whole other thread as well

Hope all that helps. My point is to do the correction as if the etchings and chips were not there, then take some pictures and time to think it over.

[NYShine]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

This is what I am referring to.

Maybe. But if they are too deep or you mess up you are in an even worse position. Either live with them or repaint the hood.

Guz how then, if at all does one determine the depth of these etchings ? To know if you should proceed or not. Very superficial I might in due time consider, but any deeper I would rather just deal with.


An interesting article on this...

according to Mike Phillips, “Sanding is the easy part. That is putting scratches into the paint. The tricky part is getting them out.” There are times when wet sanding simply will not work, for instance defects that are deep enough that they cut through the clear coat and paint, all the way to the metal.

http://www.drbeasleys.com/blog/2014/03/21/wet-sanding/

[NYShine]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

First, let's remember the problem is this car was neglected for a very long time and has multiple layers or types of defects. In terms of maintenance, these are the types of damage we are trying our best to avoid using various washing and detailing techniques, although rock chips/rashes are inevitable from driving. In terms of correction, what works for one type of defect is pointless for another, and those of us commenting have different experiences and comfort levels. You ask great questions, too, NYShine!

Spiderwebs: So, the spiderweb and swirl marks are among the easier problems you have. Those should be quick enough work with M105, and I would go over the whole car. Followed by an equally thorough polish step with perhaps two or more passes, and then a wax/sealant step, this typical correction process will solve a LOT of the superficial defects and yield a stunning black finish. This will also allow you to see and evaluate the remaining defects in a whole new light.

Etchings: Next up, you have deeper etchings. Some etchings, or parts of etchings, will come out or be faded down just from the M105 passes, but some will still be there after you've made it through the waxing. In some of those cases, I have suggested a bit of very careful sanding and filling, but I'd evaluate that after being done with the regular correction above. Some of the spots may be addressable by filling them with a bit of paint/clear and then finely polishing to reduce their appearance, some of them you may decide aren't worth worry.

Chips: Next again, you have rock chips and other types of chips that seem to go right to primer and/or bare metal. These are very common and cannot be fixed with any DA polishing technique. Unless you're going to machine sand and airbrush matching paint and clear like a paint blender would, the only way to repair them (or hide them) without repainting is to do spot repairs. As I've said, I use a paint pen along with sanding techniques with 1500/3000, and then I use compound to pull out the sanding marks.

For me, and not least because I'm dealing with black paint, some chips I've been able to make completely disappear, others not so much - that is, perhaps a crater remains that I can later work on again - but at least the metal is protected, and they are matching black spots instead of grey/white ones. Again, sanding techniques are something you need to read up on and test. Here is a very helpful thread from our very own Meg's guru Michael Stoops: http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums...ht=chip+repair

The technique I use is very similar to his, but I've not used Dr. Color Chip or others. I've either used drops of actual matching paint I got from a paint guy using a very fine art brush, or when that ran out, a standard black paint pen which has a fine tip as well as clear. I tend to prefer the matching paint and brush method, as the paint pens can be very fiddly. The sanding afterward is not necessarily required, and the softer paint blobs will wear down over the course of continuing DA work over the months and years, but sanding helps blend and level the fill.

Re-Painting: You can spend $500 or less and have the worst spots "blended", a mobile service you can find through your dealer, or you can pay $3000 or more and have the entire car repainted. Either way, you can either have perfection or a hack job, and that's a whole other thread as well

Hope all that helps. My point is to do the correction as if the etchings and chips were not there, then take some pictures and time to think it over.

That's pretty much Top Gear the course of action I'd like to take. I need to finish up the DA work, Dr ColorChip the road-rash and then re-evaluate.

With the swirls, webs, and all those white/grey chips gone it might at that point be good enough.

[NYShine]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

For example this seems to be a very non-aggressive approach. If the damage is shallow enough....

[Top Gear]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

You determine depth by working the area. Sometimes defects are illusory, due to the nature of clear coat, particularly going from the state of those first pictures to a corrected finish. This is why I've suggested to just ignore these various spots for now.

Wet-sanding alone is not going to help you at all with those spots. They need to be filled with something first. However, you will see a different car when you do the full correction properly. Some spots will cease to be so "loud", others will remain. You may decide to leave it alone at that point, or proceed. The Dr. method means spreading a bunch of goo on the paint to hopefully fill the holes level and then clean off the excess. I haven't tried it because it looks like a total mess. The paint pen/brush methods mean filling the holes at the precise point needed, and is more of an artist's skillset, requiring a sharp eye and steady hand.

Again, I suggest you do the full correction and then take some shots, then we can pick it up from there. Theory only gets you so far - at some point, you have to get out there and learn the craft

[NYShine]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

You determine depth by working the area. Sometimes defects are illusory, due to the nature of clear coat, particularly going from the state of those first pictures to a corrected finish. This is why I've suggested to just ignore these various spots for now.

Wet-sanding alone is not going to help you at all with those spots. They need to be filled with something first. However, you will see a different car when you do the full correction properly. Some spots will cease to be so "loud", others will remain. You may decide to leave it alone at that point, or proceed. The Dr. method means spreading a bunch of goo on the paint to hopefully fill the holes level and then clean off the excess. I haven't tried it because it looks like a total mess. The paint pen/brush methods mean filling the holes at the precise point needed, and is more of an artist's skillset, requiring a sharp eye and steady hand.

Again, I suggest you do the full correction and then take some shots, then we can pick it up from there. Theory only gets you so far - at some point, you have to get out there and learn the craft

No to the contrary I have no intention of doing anything other than finishing with the DA, filling in what I can with the Dr Chip and then stopping there to re-evaluate. What I was referring to was specifically the etching that Guz had spoken of. Just trying to get a better understanding of what I'm dealing with should I decide later on to address that issue. It seems if the etchings are in fact shallow it's not a complex problem - at least as the video exemplifies. Notice it came out with just a few strokes of the sandpaper. However if they are deeper that is a whole different matter, and should not be attempted as stated by the article I posted. At that point I will just deal with it. It's just a matter of being able to determine the depth - if that is at all possible ???
Im wondering in the video did he know the depth or did he just attempt a few strokes to see what he was dealing with ? The etching by the way is very similar to mine, the car black and he used a DA w/ microfiber instead of a rotary to correct.



Today after compound and polish. No wax.

[Top Gear]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

Looking great!! Makes me wonder what you're worried about

Sorry about not responding to the video. It kept crashing for some reason, so I used a different browser.

If your etchings are like he showed (quite shallow), then that's different from what your pictures look like, or the discussion above, but yes, those would be totally doable. His approach is very similar to what I've done for various fixes. He has likely done etchings before, so I'm sure he figured a simple 2500 sanding would work. That etching might have been noticeable with a fingernail, but was actually very faint. As he mentioned, the paint was very hard (like mine, looks like). His 2500 wet-sanding looked more aggressive than the 1500/3000 dry-sanding I'm talking about (due to pressure), but I like what he did, so I might try that next time (spray wax/detailer as a lube, didn't look like too much of a mess). His machine is the same one we have, and he is working very aggressively. I like his approach, as that's kinda similar to what I've figured out in my own testing.

So, assuming an etching is that faint, try a similar test (with 2500 or 3000) and see. The great thing about sandpaper is its cheap and you can get it at a local store. If an etching doesn't come out, but is still shallow like that, try a lower paper (say 1500 or 2000). One trick I learned by mistake was to use a less aggressive paper knowing I was going more aggressive, then use the lower one, and then return to the higher - 3 sandings. This refined the sanding marks to a haze that came out very easily. For example, just today I did a test with dry 3000 alone and had a much harder time getting those marks out, which were not hazed properly. Wound up having to do 4 passes with D300 and UC just to recover. As the video shows, sanding is often a great way to solve the problem, instead of standing there for hours with your machine churning away. Notice, he even said he would have done the same with hard or normal paints, using maybe 3000 instead of 2500, or 2500 with much lighter pressure.

[Eldorado2k]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

@NYShine. Your black paint looks so good now that it makes your tires look like they're slacking off! Lol.
Get some fresh tire gel on them so they match the fresh new look of the paint

[NYShine]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

Looking great!! Makes me wonder what you're worried about

Thanks Top Gear !! Yes, it is looking much better.
That's just my OCD kicking in... lol As Eldorado pointed out the better it looks the more you find that needs to be fixed.

If your etchings are like he showed (quite shallow), then that's different from what your pictures look like, or the discussion above, but yes, those would be totally doable.

Thats probably my fault but to save time and space I only posted the best and most obvious photos as an example. However I do have a few etchings all varying of course in degree, severity and depth. I couldn't possibly post them all. The video btw is AMMO (?) whom is a professional detailer from what I understand.

His approach is very similar to what I've done for various fixes. He has likely done etchings before, so I'm sure he figured a simple 2500 sanding would work. That etching might have been noticeable with a fingernail, but was actually very faint. As he mentioned, the paint was very hard (like mine, looks like). His 2500 wet-sanding looked more aggressive than the 1500/3000 dry-sanding I'm talking about (due to pressure), but I like what he did, so I might try that next time (spray wax/detailer as a lube, didn't look like too much of a mess). His machine is the same one we have, and he is working very aggressively. I like his approach, as that's kinda similar to what I've figured out in my own testing.

So, assuming an etching is that faint, try a similar test (with 2500 or 3000) and see. The great thing about sandpaper is its cheap and you can get it at a local store. If an etching doesn't come out, but is still shallow like that, try a lower paper (say 1500 or 2000). One trick I learned by mistake was to use a less aggressive paper knowing I was going more aggressive, then use the lower one, and then return to the higher - 3 sandings. This refined the sanding marks to a haze that came out very easily. For example, just today I did a test with dry 3000 alone and had a much harder time getting those marks out, which were not hazed properly. Wound up having to do 4 passes with D300 and UC just to recover. As the video shows, sanding is often a great way to solve the problem, instead of standing there for hours with your machine churning away. Notice, he even said he would have done the same with hard or normal paints, using maybe 3000 instead of 2500, or 2500 with much lighter pressure.

Yes in due time I may also try to attempt that very technique. Though I have to respect the fact that the clear coat is micro thin and leaves little or no room for error. However in some cases with the correct approuch they are definetely doable as was shown. As long as you keep it within context.

From what you wrote it seems the depth really can't be determined, which I thought would be the case. And you have to put sandpaper to paint to see where you stand.

I did like his technique (yes the spray wax was a nice touch). What I liked most was that he used equipment and techniques I'm familiar with. Quite a few videos dealing with this used rotary equipment and such that I'd be better off leaving to the pros. All in all even if I don't attempt this task I've gained a lot of knowledge that I might be able to apply elsewhere.

If you do try that technique yourself let us know how it worked out.

[NYShine]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

@NYShine. Your black paint looks so good now that it makes your tires look like they're slacking off! Lol.
Get some fresh tire gel on them so they match the fresh new look of the paint

Thanks Eldorado !!
I had to laugh when I read your post because I thought the very same thing ! I finished up the polishing and brought the car out to take a few photos. And thought, the headlights look dull, the windows need to be cleaned, the tires look bad, the interior needs work, the vinyl/rubber bumpers and moldings need to be cleaned ...

I'll have to hit the local auto supply....

[Top Gear]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

...I have to respect the fact that the clear coat is micro thin and leaves little or no room for error. However in some cases with the correct approuch they are definetely doable as was shown. As long as you keep it within context...From what you wrote it seems the depth really can't be determined, which I thought would be the case. And you have to put sandpaper to paint to see where you stand.

I think it comes down to experience and seeing similar issues again and again. You can see that spot is transparent and superficial. 2500 paper with spray wax isn't automatically going to remove much clear at all, but it looked like he was putting some decent finger pressure into it. If you do the same/similar but with light pressure, it would make some scratches/haze, which you want, but those are very superficial. You then pull those out with the machine (in a smaller area than he worked) and see how you did, repeating as necessary. He may have already done a different spot on that car, two, before shooting the video, so it then seemed like he hit on the perfect solution magically. He may have, but it was from pro experience.

[NYShine]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

I think it comes down to experience and seeing similar issues again and again. You can see that spot is transparent and superficial. 2500 paper with spray wax isn't automatically going to remove much clear at all, but it looked like he was putting some decent finger pressure into it. If you do the same/similar but with light pressure, it would make some scratches/haze, which you want, but those are very superficial. You then pull those out with the machine (in a smaller area than he worked) and see how you did, repeating as necessary. He may have already done a different spot on that car, two, before shooting the video, so it then seemed like he hit on the perfect solution magically. He may have, but it was from pro experience.

Thanks Top Gear, those are all great points.

[Top Gear]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

Thanks! BTW, I did some test spots using a similar technique - of course, I forgot all about taking pictures, sorry

So, I used some watered down red bottle QD as a lube with 3000/1500/3000 paper, in that order, cross-hatching. Just small sprays or drops were plenty of liquid, wiping away the residue as needed, and then the resulting sanding haze was easy to pull out with an MF Cutting Disc and UC on speed 6 with decent pressure and slow movement. Finished with D301 cleaner-wax. So simple and effective

[NYShine]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

Thanks! BTW, I did some test spots using a similar technique - of course, I forgot all about taking pictures, sorry

So, I used some watered down red bottle QD as a lube with 3000/1500/3000 paper, in that order, cross-hatching. Just small sprays or drops were plenty of liquid, wiping away the residue as needed, and then the resulting sanding haze was easy to pull out with an MF Cutting Disc and UC on speed 6 with decent pressure and slow movement. Finished with D301 cleaner-wax. So simple and effective

Top Gear who's MF Disks are you using ? When you get a chance try to post some after photos.

Im still waiting for the paint, I think its coming via Siberia....

[Top Gear]

Re: Need Advice On Appropriate Backing Plate, Pads, Products

I'm using DAMF (Dual Action Microfiber System), Meguiar's MF discs for the DA - love them! Sorry about not taking specific photos, but just review that same video, and you can check my gallery and thread links in my sig for a few shots...