ScratchX does not work on water spots. Next steps?

[acribb]

M105/M205 does not work very well on water spots. Next steps?

Well, my dreams for a perfectly smooth finish on my 2004 BMW 530i are now smashed.

I plunked down the cash for M105, M205, Soft Buff 2.0 yellow and black pads. Luckily I borrowed the PC 7424, so that helped out on costs. I just finished going over a test spot on my trunk and am extremely disappointed with the results. I would say about a 50% correction of the paint has been achieved. The water spots, my main issues, are still completely there, but they are reduced somewhat. The M105 has reduced the spots somewhat, but they are still very visible. The fine scratches and swirls came out. This is after about 3 treatments with the M105 and a PC 7424. I have literally spent WEEKS researching the application of M105 with a PC, so I am pretty sure I applied it correctly- primed the yellow pad just right, added just the right amount of product to the pad, used just the right amount of pressure (enough to let it spin slowly but with firm pressure), used the right patterns in going over the section multiple times....Sigh.

I even used a little bit of 3000 grit sandpaper to work on a single etching and even that didn't remove it entirely. Granted, I didn't want to risk eating into the base paint so I didn't sand too hard or for too long on that one etching.

I guess my question now is how can I cover them up so that when I fill up the car at night under fluorescent lights at a gas station, I don't see the acne on the paint? Show Car Glaze? or will my LSP of NXT 2.0 work just as well?

Can I sand the horizontal surfaces with 3000 grit safely?

[Michael Stoops]

Re: M105/M205 does not work very well on water spots. Next steps?

The M105 has reduced the spots somewhat, but they are still very visible. The fine scratches and swirls came out.

What does this tell you?

You've pulled out the defects that were shallowest, or nearest to the surface but the deeper ones are still there. You have leveled the paint to the bottom of the swirls/scratches but not to the bottom of the etching caused by the water spotting. It's not that you're doing anything wrong, it may well be that you've simply reached the limits of the PC 7424, regardless which liquid you use.

Water spots range from super easy to remove - a quick spritz of a mist & wipe product like UQD and a microfiber towel - to almost impossible and, of course, literally everywhere in between. We've seen water spotting so severe and etched so deep that even a wool pad on a rotary with a strong compound wasn't pulling them out!! The composition of the minerals in the water, how long they've been on the paint, how hard/soft the paint is, etc are all contributing factors to how easy or difficult they will be to remove.

We wouldn't really recommend sanding for a novice as you can easily trade one issue for another, potentially even worse, issue. While we also don't normally recommend using a foam cutting pad on a D/A polisher, there are times when they can come in handy for some specific defects in isolated areas. While you will certainly obtain more cut from this pad, it will most likely leave the paint looking less than perfect and will require a follow up pass with a polishing pad. Still, any hazing left from a cutting pad should be easier to deal with than sanding marks, especially if the sanding isn't done properly. If forced to choose between the two - try a test spot first with a cutting pad. Just don't let the cutting pad become your go-to tool every time you work an a car.

Again, we do not normally recommend a foam cutting pad for use with a D/A, but sometimes drastic situations call for drastic measures. Just hopefully not as drastic as sanding!

[acribb]

Re: M105/M205 does not work very well on water spots. Next steps?

Actually, I am going to have to retract that last statement. Even the very super fine straight lines did not come out with a brisk polishing with M105. In fact I can't really tell a difference at all!

All I can say is that this paint is extremely HARD. Although I will probably go over the whole car with it, I don't see the M105/M205 removing much more than the very little amount of swirls I have on my car, unfortunately.

Can I rent a rotary at Lowe's? I am obsessed with removing these water spots. I've been thinking about them for years.

What product combination will best mask these water spots?

[Aftonmtn]

Re: ScratchX does not work on water spots. Next steps?

Just a thought...have you considered letting a professional detailer have a shot at those water spots?

[acribb]

M105 and DA does not work on water spots. Next steps?

Recently my anal retentiveness has started to get to me again and I am hoping that perhaps a rotary with a wool pad and M105 would work to remove the spots, since my very light sanding with 3000 grit on one single water spot seemed to remove most of the spot, leaving behind some micro pitting. This micro pitting, or probably 70% correction would definitely be acceptable for my every other day driven car. I am debating on buying a Makita and then first practicing on some old hoods I can find from somewhere and then moving on to the hood of my car.

I guess I should first start with the burgundy foam pad first and then move up to the wool pad? Here is a link to pics earlier in this thread- http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/sho...8&postcount=13

Where would my best source for old panels be? Junk yard? Body shop?

Or, I am debating finding a good detailer around here to do the work for me. The problem is, I don't know who is any good around here. My opinion is that most of the 'detailers' at the car dealerships are most likely hacks and i'd probably do better just learning the art of rotary buffing myself and taking my time on my own car. Hell, i've already watched tons of Megs videos on YouTube as well as read almost every post on the megsonline forums.... Now I just need some hands on experience.....

Can anyone recommend a professional detailer with experience in Jacksonville, FL?

[Michael Stoops]

Re: ScratchX does not work on water spots. Next steps?

From your picture in the thread you linked to, it looks like you're dealing with more of a pitting issue than just water spots. We see plenty of cars with hoods that have these very fine pits that are inflicted by road debris - basically the hood is getting sand blasted.

Finding a good pro detailer so that you can discuss this with an experienced person is a very good idea. Your right, most auto dealer "detailers" are not real high end paint polishers - they simply do not have the time to do a proper, full correction nor are their customers willing to pay for it. Find a good independent guy. But if those really are pits, you may have to live with them. If M105 and a D/A are removing the swirls and fine scratches, which they should since we've done it dozens of times on BMWs, Benzes, etc, but these pits remain, then they are likely so deep that to remove them means to remove an dangerous amount of clear coat. You've only got about 2 mils of clear to work with, and repeated, aggressive use of a rotary/wool/compound can remove more than you really want to.

Without seeing these marks in person it's a bit difficult to say with 100% certainty that they are beyond repair. But we've seen a lot of cars with this type of pitting.

[acribb]

Re: ScratchX does not work on water spots. Next steps?

The majority of the issue is definitely not so much pitting as what I would describe as moderate to severe water spot etching, I think caused by acid rain. The 'etchings' are round and look like amoeba cells. All horizontal surfaces, including the roof and trunk lid look this way. However, I do see the micro pitting that you are referring to- that I could live with, it's just the big circles that show up under fluorescent lighting in a parking garage or gas station that I can't stand. Looks like acne on the paint.

The M105 and PC 7424 surprisingly and disappointingly did very little, even after going over it many times, using the correct KB technique. Swirls and fine scratches are still there......

A light, and I mean, a light wetsand with a 1/2 inch wide strip of 3000 grit on a 1/4" round waterspot using about 4 swipes of the sandpaper yielded an acceptable result, leaving only some micropitting, which is why I think that a circular tool with a more power and friction could yield better results than my PC7424. Am I on base here?

If I were to attempt the correction myself with a rotary, should I start with first the yellow foam, then the burgundy foam, and then the wool? I can and will take the time to properly learn how to use a rotary on some scrap panels before taking it to my BMW, I can assure you of that. I enjoy detailing my vehicles to perfection in my spare time and want to perfect our BMW the best I can without having to respray the top surfaces (the BMW paint shop quoted me 5K for this!).

BUT..........Can anyone on these forums recommend a quality detailer in the Jacksonville FL area, so I could at least explore that option?

[Michael Stoops]

Re: ScratchX does not work on water spots. Next steps?

The M105 and PC 7424 surprisingly and disappointingly did very little, even after going over it many times, using the correct KB technique. Swirls and fine scratches are still there......

Can we assume you used a W8207 foam polishing pad, or maybe even a Lake Country orange pad? If so, it may be that you either didn't use enough pressure on the pad, not enough speed, or you're paint is just so hard that it's presenting a huge challenge to the D/A polisher.

A light, and I mean, a light wetsand with a 1/2 inch wide strip of 3000 grit on a 1/4" round waterspot using about 4 swipes of the sandpaper yielded an acceptable result, leaving only some micropitting, which is why I think that a circular tool with a more power and friction could yield better results than my PC7424. Am I on base here?

If in fact the paint is that hard, then yes, a rotary will likely correct the issue that the D/A can't. And we have seen water spots etched so deep into paint that even a rotary couldn't quite remove them, at least not without removing so much paint as to no longer be safe. One question though - how were you able to remove the wet sanding marks? Did your D/A pull them out? If so, and if all you needed was "4 swipes" of 3000 grit paper, that may well be a better alternative than rotary buffing. When done properly, wet sanding can actually be less invasive than aggressive rotary buffing. If you use 3000 grit with a proper backing pad and not just bare handed, you end up with a very controlled and predictable scratch that is generally easier to remove than the random issues you're currently dealing with. What seems very odd, however, is that you couldn't remove the water spots with the D/A but a very mild sanding approach did pull them, and then you could remove those scratches with the D/A.

If I were to attempt the correction myself with a rotary, should I start with first the yellow foam, then the burgundy foam, and then the wool? I can and will take the time to properly learn how to use a rotary on some scrap panels before taking it to my BMW, I can assure you of that. I enjoy detailing my vehicles to perfection in my spare time and want to perfect our BMW the best I can without having to respray the top surfaces (the BMW paint shop quoted me 5K for this!).

If by start with the yellow foam and then progress up to the wool pad you mean take an easy approach first, and get more aggressive only if need be, then yes. Otherwise you've got the pad sequencing backwards (but we're pretty sure you meant trying the gentle approach first). If you choose to go this route after considering your 3000 grit sanding approach a bit more, then by all means take the time to do it correctly. Rotary buffing is a great skill to learn, but learning it is very different and more involved than learning D/A polishing. Obviously you understand that, which is almost half the battle!

BUT..........Can anyone on these forums recommend a quality detailer in the Jacksonville FL area, so I could at least explore that option?

We'll have to defer to other MOL members for this one!