Using #83 with the Rotary

[Jeff Smith]

I am in the middle of one of my big experiments again doing totally unecessary work just to see what I can learn from it.

Yesterday I used the Rotary. This was my 2nd or 3rd usage of it. I got brave an jumped the speed up to #3 on my Makita which put me at 1500 RPMs I think. I used an 8006 pad. I had a few scratches and minor micro-marring to contend with and I do realize #83 was likely not the best advised product to try first. My my goal is to learn a little about #83 on my own vehicle and my own paint and familiarize myself with it.

I found it to be a trade off in that it did get rid of what I wanted to get rid of but traded that for some very minor cob-webbing. I am unsure if this is to be expected or not but I need the experience with the product so I am still very happy.

Today I went with #83 at the same speed but with the 9006 pad. The cobwebbing was further reduced and is almost gone unless a very close inspection is done. So again I am happy.

I found by doing these 2 back to back applications I was able to really get into developing my technique. Specifically, how much product to use, how long to work it, and how large of an area. I found that with the Rotary at 1500. I could do overlapping passes of about an 18" square area and that was about it. I found trying to work it much longer than that was putting me at risk of dry buffing. This one pass appeared to allow me to break the product down well enough because after wiping the area with the Terry Towel, I was able to see some of the streaking/smearing I am used to seeing with with the pure polishes like #7. This gave me much confidence that I was well on way way to having taken great steps in developing my technique. It's perfect by no means but doing this has proven to be a great confidence builder.

I am kind of undecided as to which way I want to go. My 2 options I am considering are:
1. #83 with the 8006 pad and the PC
2. #80 with the 8006 Pad and the Rotary.

As it stands know I am leaning toward the #83 with the PC.

I am considering this whole experience as a training exercise for myself. What a great confidence builder though. It is hard to use these polishes once or twice then not touch them for months. I think alot of what I learned last year fell through the cracks.

As the day progressed the wind picked up. I strarted hitting my pad with a quick hit of Final Inspection because each time I put the rig down to wipe off a panel the wind would blow the pad dry. Just a very light, quick hit of FI really helped here. I had to skip the hood and roof today as I could not get out of the sun and did not want to push to dry buffing risk any further. I have my gear with me tonight at work and hope to knock those out here in a bit. If I don't get to it tonight I can catch it in the morning when I know I will have the shade of the house on my side.

The further I get along with this excercise the more I realize how much of a boogar white paint can be. It's hard. Hard as heck. White is also a labor eater in that you can sink alot of work into white an the results don't show as well as with some of the darker colors. I like white and love what I am able to do with it but white is not an easy color to get extraordinary results out of. Even with alot of work I find myself scratching my head wondering if I really gained anything or not. But, I like it and like polishing on it. I doubt the next paintjob will be white though.

[RDVT4ME]

I would consider using #80 with an 8006 polishing pad with the PC as your next step. That should finish it off well!

[Jeff Smith]

Originally posted by RDVT4ME
I would consider using #80 with an 8006 polishing pad with the PC as your next step. That should finish it off well!

Thanks, I agree that would likely make sense. But I am kinda going through this as more of a training experience so I have convinced myself that I should try the #83 with a 8006 and the PC. Just for the experience because this will likely be about the opnly time I should ever need to work with number #83 on my finish so I might as well take advantage of the opportunity.

I am saving my pennies up for a custom paintjob in the next couple of years so that kind of makes this factory paintjob a good practice medium for me.

I am very happy with the results I have so far. I had police officer drving alongside me earlier this evening looking at the truck. I pulled off to get coffee and he turned around and came back just to ask what kind of wax I had on it. I had to go through the whole explanation about claying cleaning and polishing and explained he wasn't looking at wax. He was surprised and I was probably feeling like a new father I was so proud of my recent accomplishment.

I have a few other vehicles sitting around I'll be practicing with when warmer weather sets in for good. I can;t justify the additional work out in the cold right now.

[Jeff Smith]

Well, I am almost finished with my little learning process with #83. This is what I have fooled around and done.
Day 1 Washed>Clayed

Day 2 Dusted>QdDed>#83 w/Rotary @1500 & 8006 pad
With this application I removed most of the Scratches I was after but traded the scratches for some cobwebbing likely due to my inexperience with the Rotary

Day 3 Dusted>QdDed>#83 w/Rotary @1500 & 9006 pad
With this application the minor cobwebbing was greatly minimized but was still noticable without much effort.

Day 4 Washed>Dried w/leaf blower>#83 w/PC @3 & 8006 pad
Cobbwebing still there but only noticable under direct sunlight. Even the Dual Xenon light would not pick it up.

Day 5 Dusted>QdDed>#83 w/PC @3 & 9006 pad
Cobweebing now appears to be entirely gone. Not seen with very close inspection under direct sunlight.

Thats where I am at now. I am very happy I decided to get carried away and run with these back to back applications. What a great learning experiece. It's at a point now where I could atually stop here and the thing would look perfect to all but the most experienced eyes.

And yes, I do fully realize I am overpolishing and doing needless work here. But I am after the learning experience and the knowledge gained. I never liked the factory painjob anyway and hope to put a custom job on it in a couple of years.

Next up I plan to run #80 through something similar as above. There are a couple of now very faint scratches I could not get out so I may hit those with a couple of hand applications of Scratch-X before proceeding with the #80.

[Marcus]

Jeff?
You didn't find using the #83 with the PC difficult to break down the product?
I'm not using the PC but the cyclo as alternative over here in sweden, but I never really got the hang of it.. Felt like the pads didn't manage to break down the product all the way; thus leaving larger marks on the finish than necessary.

When I whipped out the rotary instead I got a much better result than with the cyclo, so, I really thought that it was the breaking down of the product that was my problem. So, no more #83 with the cyclo for me, but it doesn't really matter either since I get a veery good result with the rotary w/ 8006/9006 pads..

/Marcus

[Jeff Smith]

Originally posted by Marcus
Jeff?
You didn't find using the #83 with the PC difficult to break down the product?
I'm not using the PC but the cyclo as alternative over here in sweden, but I never really got the hang of it.. Felt like the pads didn't manage to break down the product all the way; thus leaving larger marks on the finish than necessary.

When I whipped out the rotary instead I got a much better result than with the cyclo, so, I really thought that it was the breaking down of the product that was my problem. So, no more #83 with the cyclo for me, but it doesn't really matter either since I get a veery good result with the rotary w/ 8006/9006 pads..

/Marcus

I agree I should have mentioned this. I did part of my #83 work at night and the other part in the day. During the day or night I could break down the #83 rather easily @1500 RPMS with the Rotary. It was actually alot faster than I was comfortable with at first. I could get it breaking down or the first pass.

The passes with the PC at #6 were much different. I again did part at night and part at day. The daytime passes were a monster. I had to stick to very small areas, keep priming the PAD with Final Inspection and work fast. Even then, the product would start drying up on me before I could break it down.

The nighttime passes were a totally different animal though. I could work larger areas with less product without priming the pad as often. It would actiually take me about 5 passes to actually break it down but by being able to keep it wetter longer I was now able to get the 5 passes out of it to break it down. I am now a nighttime polishing convert. Even with the PC, at night, I could see the streaks and smearyness I am used to seeing with the pure polishes like #7. This gave me great confidence I had a decent grasp of the concept.

Adding an afterthought here. Another thing I noticed that when I did half the truck done with the PC @ 8006 and the other half with the 9006 was that at night, while using very bright airfield lights the reflections of the lights on the side being been done with the 8006 pad had a very light haze around them. Not visible scratches but I suspect scratches so light they were not seen by the naked eye.

After comparing this to the side having been done with the 9006 pad I noticed the slight hazing had cleared up and the reflections were now a tad sharper.

I am very curious to see if I am going to be able to see noticable differences between several similar efforts with #80. Looking forward to that. It's at a point now were I really don't think I'll improve the paint itself more more than I have it already. But I will play around a little more and think about it. I still want to aply #80, #9 or #82 then #81 before the LSP but doubt very serious I will run all these products through the same process I did with #83.

[Tim Lingor]

Hey Jeff,

I am pleased to see that you are taking a systematic approach in learning how to use the rotary! Well done!

I just finish an extreme detail that required many hours of rotary work! Some "detailer" butchered the guy's truck with the worst buffer burns and holograms I have ever seen!

One thing I would suggest, is that once you get the hang of each product with the rotary, start trying different speeds. The differences with the same product but at different speeds is quite remarkable.

Tim

[Monk]

Jeff--since you seem pretty obsessive about this (that's a GOOD thing), how large an area do you work with @83 with the DA on 5 and how many passes do you get before you get dry? Same question as to #80

[Jeff Smith]

Originally posted by 2hotford
Hey Jeff,

I am pleased to see that you are taking a systematic approach in learning how to use the rotary! Well done!

I just finish an extreme detail that required many hours of rotary work! Some "detailer" butchered the guy's truck with the worst buffer burns and holograms I have ever seen!

One thing I would suggest, is that once you get the hang of each product with the rotary, start trying different speeds. The differences with the same product but at different speeds is quite remarkable.

Tim

Thanks for the speed advice Tim. I will do that but likely not on my truck at this time. This week I play with #80 and then am looking at #9. For the moment, I think I am best off sticking to a process I am familiar with. I think I should be better able to discern the basic characteristics of each product like this. I have 4 more vehicles lined up that I am going to work up with the Rotary over the next month or so. Each vehicle is completely different as far as the condiction of the paint. All the way from new down to 8 years old with "SERIOUS" problems. So I have my work cut out for me. The cool thing is they are all sitting in my driveway and at my disposal. I plan to take pics as I go with the other vehicles as none of them are white and I have a bear of a time getting decent pics of white.

The last vehicle I work up will be a '03 Black Silverado. That one will be the one that tells me whether or not I am on track.

[Jeff Smith]

Originally posted by Monk
Jeff--since you seem pretty obsessive about this (that's a GOOD thing), how large an area do you work with @83 with the DA on 5 and how many passes do you get before you get dry? Same question as to #80

Well, I can offer my thought on the #83 now but will have to hold on the #80 as I really have not started that one yet. Tonight if all goes well.

Working #83 with the PC is a bear. The slightest variations in Tempurature, Humidity Wind and goddness knows what else seem to effect the application of #83 via the PC more noticably, to me, than any other product I have worked with to date. For #83 I was very lucky during the daytime to get 2-3 passes of an 18"x18" area before it started drying up. There were a couple of times when the breeze would pick up and I was lucky to complete one pass. Now at nighttime, I could get 5 passes out of a 2'x2' area and full product breakdown and could likely go with one more pass if I wished. And this was at Speed setting 6

For me, Since I am getting used to the Rotary, I doubt I will rely on using #83 with the PC any more. I "may" use it as a follow up to using the Rotary w/#83 but I will not rely on the PC for defect removal. If defect removal is what you are after with the PC, I would recommend a nighttime application. This significantly increased my working time with the product.

[Jeff Smith]

Well, tonight I finished up the PC W/ 9006 pad @ #83. I still had the passenger side of the truck to knock out. Pretty much solidified my previous opinion that #83 for defect removal via the PC is not worth the effort if there is a Rotary around. Mike and others have pretty much stated similar but I am one of those who likes to know exactly where they are coming from when they say this. I kind of doubt my PC will see much more #83.

I did have enough time to dabble with the #80 a bit. I used the Rotary with a 8006 pad @ 1500 RPM. Whew, what a difference in the amount of worktime as compared to the PC. That thing will work it to a high gloss on the first pass. Scared me a bit until I started playing with amount of product, size of area and such. I think I'll likely take Tim's advice now that I see this and back off the Speed a bit. I have absolutely no work time at 1500. I'll likely restart tomorrow and go over the same panels. I did the Roof, the hood and the passenger side from fender and stopped there.

One additional note on the #83 application with the PC. Remember I was working a Speed 6. This is a great way to booger up a 9006 pad. This pad is hosed. Tore half the Velcro off the pad and Tore the pad itself. The 8006 pad held up very well at this speed but I think the 9006 was too soft. It even cut the pad around the edges a bit where I would lean the edge of the pad into a corner a bit and the backing plate sort of cut into the pad. Lesson Learned there.

[Jeff Smith]

Well Tim, I am going back on my origianl plan. Today I hit the whole truck with #80 with the Rotary w/ 8006 pad @ about 2.5. I had to back the speed down a bit as the product was breaking down too fast. With one pass I noticed very glossy areas with no haze. Backing the speed down a bit helped quite a bit. I though I would have to back it down more but just the .5 difference did the trick.

For me, sometimes I tend to forget the difference with the PC and Rotary when working. I tend to do larger areas with the PC than the Rotary. When using the Rotary I would forget and try to do a larger area and get superfast product breakdown. Much fastr than I needed. I also forget and use a PC hand spped like I am applying a wax. All that should straighten itself out with experience.

Today I focused on pad cleaning for each panel. I just pressed a terry into the pad and spun it up. I also tried to focus on using different amounts of product for various sized areas.

The sling was not bad at all today. I did get it from time to time but not at all like I have in the past. I used a silver dollar sized circle for smaller areas with lots of curves or bends. I switched to slightly larger circles,more toward the outside edge of the pad for the larger areas with lots of smooth surface areas.

I am a "dabber" in that I apply the product to the pad, then dab in about 8 times or so around on the work area. Then I start the Rotary and keep the speed and try to do a quick pass to smooth the product out over eh work area. Then I squeeze the trigger and work it up. Seems to be working OK for me at this time but I do realize there are likely beeter ways of doing this.

[Tim Lingor]

Hey Jeff,

When using the rotary, I do not place the product on the pad but rather lay a bead of ~6-8" on the paint itself. A dab of product for the rotary is not enough, and will cause the product to dry up way too fast. When you said that you broke #80 down beginning with only one pass, I knew something was not right. Like I have suggested in many threads, for #80 I like to use ~1300 RPM. But you should be able to get several passes before it is breaking down. Therefore, several things could be happening:

1. You are not using enough product (like I said, use a good, thick 6-8" line at a time.)

2. The pad has become too saturated. Once this happens, cleaning it with a towel or a cleaning brush like I use will not help. The product will seem to break down almost immediately, and cause buffer hop.

3. Your arm movement with the rotary may be a little too slow or too fast. Again, some experimentation will help.

As I have said, I have used one of these beasts for over 17 years and believe me, it was not easy in the beginning. There is a ton to learn about how each product and pad reacts to the various speeds etc. But once you get it dialed in, it will become quite natural!

As for the #83 with the PC, I am at a loss. I can honestly say that I have never had a problem with using the product. I have often been asked over the years how long does it take to break down #83 with the PC set to speed 5, and I actually went out and timed it (RamAirV1 will remember that from back on the old Show Car Garage days! ) It took around 3 minutes or longer over a 2'x2' panel or slightly smaller. Perhaps your temperatures or humidity is quite a bit different etc....

But again, my best advice is to experiment with different combinations as much as possible. Of course, that will all change when you come across difference paint hardness etc... But it will give you a starting point, and the rest will come from experience! So keep practicing!

Tim

[Jeff Smith]

Originally posted by 2hotford
Hey Jeff,

When using the rotary, I do not place the product on the pad but rather lay a bead of ~6-8" on the paint itself. A dab of product for the rotary is not enough, and will cause the product to dry up way too fast. When you said that you broke #80 down beginning with only one pass, I knew something was not right. Like I have suggested in many threads, for #80 I like to use ~1300 RPM. But you should be able to get several passes before it is breaking down. Therefore, several things could be happening:

1. You are not using enough product (like I said, use a good, thick 6-8" line at a time.)

2. The pad has become too saturated. Once this happens, cleaning it with a towel or a cleaning brush like I use will not help. The product will seem to break down almost immediately, and cause buffer hop.

3. Your arm movement with the rotary may be a little too slow or too fast. Again, some experimentation will help.

As I have said, I have used one of these beasts for over 17 years and believe me, it was not easy in the beginning. There is a ton to learn about how each product and pad reacts to the various speeds etc. But once you get it dialed in, it will become quite natural!

As for the #83 with the PC, I am at a loss. I can honestly say that I have never had a problem with using the product. I have often been asked over the years how long does it take to break down #83 with the PC set to speed 5, and I actually went out and timed it (RamAirV1 will remember that from back on the old Show Car Garage days! ) It took around 3 minutes or longer over a 2'x2' panel or slightly smaller. Perhaps your temperatures or humidity is quite a bit different etc....

But again, my best advice is to experiment with different combinations as much as possible. Of course, that will all change when you come across difference paint hardness etc... But it will give you a starting point, and the rest will come from experience! So keep practicing!

Tim

Hmm. All good puts Tim, At first I thought I was doing something wrong because I knew I was working it so fast. I kicked the speed down which at least let me work an area without the pad going dry. It appeared to me that I was acheiveing decent product breakdown. I do have to be honest though. Judging product breakdown on white paint is a boogar.

I'll check into a few more threads on product application. I could have sworn I had seen successful results using my approach though. I must have been mistaken. I may go ahead and redo the #80 & the 8006 pad before proceeding any further. That's one combination that needs to be known above most all else.

[Jeff Smith]

I am gong to redo this application Tim, I'll back the spped down to ~2.5 on the Makita. I guess that should put me at 1300.

I'll probably sling all over but I need to figure this out. I did OK on the first go around but did not have that feel that I was doing the absolute best I could. I was just getting it done.

I'll spend tonight playing with it on the roof. Hopefully I'll nail it enough to where tomorrow I'll feel comfortable enough to finish the rest of this application.

I tried to find a few threads showing pics and descibing how to do this by applying via your approach. I came up emptyhanded. If you can remember where they are and post a link I would greatly appreciate it.