What if GM bankrupts ?

[MyFirstES300]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

I've owned 3 Fords (86' Marquis, 89' Taurus and a 92' Sable). One Chevy (84' Cavalier Wagon). Least to say, the cars were in the shop on average once a month and as sure as *od makes green apples, as soon as one thing was fixed, something else would break.

I've been buying foreign since 1989, and by far and large the cars have been reliable and no problems whatsoever. I am sticking to what I know, and right now my brand loyalty is to Toyota.

[termigator69]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

I've owned 3 Fords (86' Marquis, 89' Taurus and a 92' Sable). One Chevy (84' Cavalier Wagon). Least to say, the cars were in the shop on average once a month and as sure as *od makes green apples, as soon as one thing was fixed, something else would break.

I've been buying foreign since 1989, and by far and large the cars have been reliable and no problems whatsoever. I am sticking to what I know, and right now my brand loyalty is to Toyota.

I believe it is that kind of thinking that is going to make it very hard for the domestics to regain the edge. When the domestic automakers stumbled, the Japanese automakers were there to show us there were better options and they've kept the edge. I think the only way for GM & Ford (And Chrysler by a long shot) to regain the edge is to not only show the public that they can compete, but their "competition" also need to stumble and I just don't think that's going to happen. I for one will not buy domestic unless they can show me that their cars are not only better performance wise, but also better in reliability. These are two areas I just don't think they're going to catch the Japanese.

[MyFirstES300]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

Termigator69, I agree with you wholeheartedly. If any of the Big 3 could show me differently, then I would buy American again.

[RaskyR1]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

I believe it is that kind of thinking that is going to make it very hard for the domestics to regain the edge. When the domestic automakers stumbled, the Japanese automakers were there to show us there were better options and they've kept the edge. I think the only way for GM & Ford (And Chrysler by a long shot) to regain the edge is to not only show the public that they can compete, but their "competition" also need to stumble and I just don't think that's going to happen. I for one will not buy domestic unless they can show me that their cars are not only better performance wise, but also better in reliability. These are two areas I just don't think they're going to catch the Japanese.

Don't forget about resale value.

[Markus Kleis]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

I believe it is that kind of thinking that is going to make it very hard for the domestics to regain the edge. When the domestic automakers stumbled, the Japanese automakers were there to show us there were better options and they've kept the edge. I think the only way for GM & Ford (And Chrysler by a long shot) to regain the edge is to not only show the public that they can compete, but their "competition" also need to stumble and I just don't think that's going to happen. I for one will not buy domestic unless they can show me that their cars are not only better performance wise, but also better in reliability. These are two areas I just don't think they're going to catch the Japanese.

Be careful what you put in writing

Ford started a serious campaign on quality when Mulally stepped in as CEO. In 2006 Ford has more segment leaders (with 5, next closest was 3...) for quality than anyone else in the industry. Over the last 2.5 years Ford has been the ONLY automaker to consistently increase quality at a rate higher than the industry average.

Ford is also, (and has been for 2 years) tied with Toyota and Honda for #1 in quality. Factor in the 100% guaranteed user bias in the reports, and I would put my money that in reality Ford is actually slightly ahead of them in quality right now. Maybe that's just the advanced statistics and business stats classes I've taken speaking though

I think you guys make a decent point about needing the Japanese to stumble so to speak, but at the same time, I think another option is simply for Ford to continue pumping out SAFER (They have more 5 star crashed tested and more NHTSA top safety picks than ANYONE) high quality cars (even if they are tied with the Japanese cars), while simultaneously making more capable (think F150 > Tundra) and definitely better looking cars.

Japanese cars are mostly a snooze fest when it comes to styling (Corolla, Camry, Accord, etc), where as most people agree Ford makes some darn good lookin' cars.

Times are changing boys! The blue oval is on the rise!

[Markus Kleis]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

Don't forget about resale value.

That too is a good point, but that too is changing. KBB and other organizations are putting out reports that the new 2009+ F150 is expected to have HIGHER resale than the Toyota Tundra. Who would have thunk it!

[MyFirstES300]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

Be careful what you put in writing


Ford is also, (and has been for 2 years) tied with Toyota and Honda for #1 in quality. Factor in the 100% guaranteed user bias in the reports, and I would put my money that in reality Ford is actually slightly ahead of them in quality right now. Maybe that's just the advanced statistics and business stats classes I've taken speaking though


Times are changing boys! The blue oval is on the rise!

That may be true, but what was their excuse for the past 25 years? Consumers typically base their purchase on an automakers overall consistent quality rating or through just plain brand loyalty. Although Ford has improved over the past two years, it's not enough to change a consumer's mind to purchase a Ford right away. Ford needs to maintain its consistency in quality ratings. Then we'll see...

Do you read Consumer Reports magazine? If not, pick up this month's edition. It's the annual auto edition. There is a host of information in it.

[termigator69]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

I confidently stand by what I have written!
I guess we're getting our information from different sources, because I've read otherwise.

When you say "quality", are you equating it to reliability? Personally, I don't see them as the same. While many vehicles are high in initial quality (think Mercedes), their reliability can be quite atrocious.
While I do agree that Ford has made great strides, few people would see them as ahead of the likes of Toyota & Honda. Even if they are, the perception is just not there. I'm sure at least one of your business classes would have to have mentioned that perception can be extremely hard to change.

As far as looks go, that is very subjective. Until the latest Accord came out, I always thought the Accord was quite handsome. I actually bought an 07' Accord because I loved the design and I thought the 08' version was quite ugly. Until the most recent Fusion, I hadn't seen a good looking Ford since the Thunderbird of the early 90's. I actually wanted to get the 92' Thunderbird SC, but that year Honda came out with their new Prelude and I was just hooked. I've been a Honda guy since.
(Until I got hosed by Acura in 08', but that's totally different story!)

[termigator69]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

That may be true, but what was their excuse for the past 25 years? Consumers typically base their purchase on an automakers overall consistent quality rating or through just plain brand loyalty. Although Ford has improved over the past two years, it's not enough to change a consumer's mind to purchase a Ford right away. Ford needs to maintain its consistency in quality ratings. Then we'll see...

Do you read Consumer Reports magazine? If not, pick up this month's edition. It's the annual auto edition. There is a host of information in it.

I have the latest CR magazine for cars. The stats are actually quite favorable for Ford, but Honda is still the best overall with Subaru a close second. IIRC, Toyota was third. I don't remember where Ford ranked, but I believe they were quite high.

[Megafast13]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

It will be a shame if GM Does. I would much rather give GM billions of dollars than to AIG or other banks going under for the 2nd or 3rd time...

Honestly though, I own a 2001 GMC and it's already on its last leg.

I had a 97' Caravan and had to change the Trans back in 2000...

I do have a Ford Crown Vic 94' that still runs decently.

But, Nothing compares to Toyota and Honda. I have an 01' Civic with 300,000 Miles on it and it runs like new. I don't know if an american car can count that high

My Lexus is also an amazing vehicle. The reliability and quality just seems to be so much better these days, but I still want GM, Ford, and Chrysler around

[3Fitty]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

Well, there is also a bit more to the reliability story as well. Lets not get carried away and think Toyota and Honda don't make lemons because they do. It's how they handle those "special cases" that is also to be considered. I wrote earlier about a disaster we had with a Pontiac Grand Prix.

Part of the disaster is how it was handled by the manufacturer and the dealer. Just no service at all. Now here's a twist to the story... see the IS350 in my avatar? It's my second. You know what happened to my first?

Returned to Lexus as a lemon with no if ands or buts. Two phone calls and two letters and they exchanged a six month old '07 for a brand new '08 and in doing so, kept me as a customer. So, even though I got a bad apple, they did the right thing. Maybe GM would do the same today, but back in the day we heard every excuse in the book of "what we were doing wrong with our cars".

[Tim Lingor]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

It will be a shame if GM Does. I would much rather give GM billions of dollars than to AIG or other banks going under for the 2nd or 3rd time...

Honestly though, I own a 2001 GMC and it's already on its last leg.

I had a 97' Caravan and had to change the Trans back in 2000...

I do have a Ford Crown Vic 94' that still runs decently.

But, Nothing compares to Toyota and Honda. I have an 01' Civic with 300,000 Miles on it and it runs like new. I don't know if an american car can count that high

My Lexus is also an amazing vehicle. The reliability and quality just seems to be so much better these days, but I still want GM, Ford, and Chrysler around

Just out of curiosity, are these your vehicles or your parents?

Knowing that you are only 16, when you mention that :

"I had a 97' Caravan and had to change the Trans back in 2000..."

Would that not have made you 7 years old?

While we all enjoy your enthusiasm for detailing, I think it would be prudent to be more accurate in your comments...

Tim

[Tuck91]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

Since 2007 i have been keeping up on the Chevy Silverado, Toyota Tundra, Dodge Ram, and F150. Over the last 3 years all the pickups i mentioned above have undergone some drastic changes inside and out. I guess what i am trying to say is that i want to see GM, Chrystler and Ford around because they all make great cars and its not fair to claim one is better than the other because they all have their ups and downs and IMHO they all make good looking cars and trucks. The reason i like Chevy Trucks is mainly because my father and my grandfather both have owned numerous chevy pickups purchased from the same dealership for the past 30 years or so. I also like Chevy trucks for their interior and exterior styling as well as engine choices and various cab and bed configurations to choose from. Every one likes different things and its not fair to say one brand is better than the other. I like Chevy for some reasins listed above but i still think the Toyota Tundra is an attractive pickup and the new F 150 looks cool as well.

The best thing to do is keep things simple and choose a car you like

[3Fitty]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

I was hoping to buy a boat in the near future and was contemplating either and F-150 or a Tundra as my truck of choice to tow it.

I've driven my father-in-law's F-150 and I love it, so maybe I'll give Ford a try when the time comes.

[Markus Kleis]

Re: What if GM bankrupts ?

That may be true, but what was their excuse for the past 25 years? Consumers typically base their purchase on an automakers overall consistent quality rating or through just plain brand loyalty. Although Ford has improved over the past two years, it's not enough to change a consumer's mind to purchase a Ford right away. Ford needs to maintain its consistency in quality ratings. Then we'll see...

Do you read Consumer Reports magazine? If not, pick up this month's edition. It's the annual auto edition. There is a host of information in it.

They don't have, nor need an excuse for the past 25 years. Ford isn't the type of company (right now) to be making excuses. I pay close enough attention that I watch the mini series and short videos that Ford makes from time to time, and they will be the first ones to tell you that they got lazy in the past. Literally. Mark Fields and Alan Mulally both openly admit Ford was not a smart or strong business at one point.

As for your theory about what it will take to change "consumers" minds, it sounds more like a plan of what it would take to change your mind
That's fine, and it makes sense. If you want to see a long-term proven track record, I totally get that. Truly, I do.

But considering that Ford was the original mass automaker of the world, and led the world in innovation (Do you know who invented the assembly line?), and has had many strong periods, for many people it won't take all that long to realize that times have changed once again, and Ford at this time is making seriously competitive vehicles.

As for Consumer Reports, heh, well, I have strong feelings in regards to that "publication." I think it is one of the least useful and certainly one of the most reckless publications out there. I really don't want to get into it, but let's just say CR on more than one occasion has demonstrated its terrible habit of bias and only once people raised a serious stink about their wrong reports was anything acknowledged about it.

One that comes to mind is when CR gave the new Camry a rave review, editor's pick, top recommendations, blah blah....come to find out they NEVER even touched one of the cars. They actually gave the review based on nothing more than a biased perception. Now, ordinarily that wouldn't be that big of a deal...except this time it came back to bite them.

Why? Because the new Toyota Camry has a BELOW average reliability rating. Bet you didn't know that? The car was such a hunk that people wrote in to CR in droves because of the constant problems with their car... only then did CR finally admit (quietly) that they were blindly giving Toyota's recommendations without actually investigating the vehicle.

I have several more examples that have scientific and personal anecdotal evidence to directly refute CR's findings, but there's really no point in getting into them. Like politics, I have learned when it comes to vehicles people tend to be very passionate and have strong beliefs...myself included! So trying to convince someone that company A is XYZ is basically a waste of time.

I think I'll stick to my own research methods, and cheaper, perfectly reliable vehicles for now

Good discussion though!

Side note: family owned Fords in recent history (I realize a small group holds no scientific data, but some people think it isn't possible for even a car or two made in America to be this way)
*1989 Ford Aerostar van. 189,000 miles, never had a problem.
*1989 Ford Ranger had 145,000 miles. Clutch replaced at around 100k. That's it.
*1992 Ford Econoline van, had 120,000 miles and replaced a radiator hose. We sold it to a friend, and they put another 75,000 trouble free miles on it before selling it.
*1997 Ford F150. Never went to the dealership once in 8 years, and 94,000 miles.
*1997 Ford Aerostar 97,000 miles. No problems.
*2000 Focus. currently has 92,000 miles..had a power window module go out. That's all. Car still runs literally like day 1.
*2002 Ford Ranger for 36,000 miles. I had an A/C hose get a crack from not using the A/C (it apparently dries out if you don't run the AC, which I ran maybe 2-3 times in 3 years). That's it.
*2004 F150 with 85,000 miles. Never been to the dealership once.
*2005 Ford Focus, previous rental that was abused, and still no problems. I think it has 50,000~ miles.
*2006 Ford Focus... still have it, still love it. 33,000 miles and no problems.


Quite a few vehicles and miles for such few, and such minor problems. Heck, you just might think I listed a bunch of Toyotas for a second there, eh?