Lemon Law for Defective Paint

[davidw]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

We'll have to agree to disagree.. I went to the dealer with my issue over and over. They never mentioned anything about an outside detail service.. They said " we've done all we could do ". So then who do I try to go to for results ? The dealer represents Nissan. If I've exhausted my attempts with the dealer, logic tells me that someone has to be responsible for the issue so Nissan CONSUMER AFFAIRS seemed to be the obviuos choice. THe are there to try to satisfy the customer. They tried and the results were the same. Nissan Consumer Affairs said to me "your own you own and do what you need to do ". It's certainly not my fault that a brand new vehicle is damaged and the dealer couldnt' help me. Anyway, we all have our own opinions and ideas and IMO I took the best course of action that I needed to.

[Nick Chapman]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Sorry Nick, can't let the second biggest litigation myth pass without challenge.

Read the real story about the McDonald's case here http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0122-11.htm

You'll see that McDonalds was heating their coffee 30-50 degrees hotter than what it should've been because it extended the life of the coffee thereby increasing $$$.

Coffee is hot, thats a no brainer. If you spill coffee on yourself, it's going to burn! <---another no brainer. If it was 30 degrees cooler, would it have not burned? I believe the results would have been the same. People in this world are all too happy to file a law suit over something rediculous.

My girlfriend is a flight attendant. She is required to wear a specific uniform, made out of a specific material. She was flying into LAX when the aircraft hit some turbulance, causing the aircraft coffee pot to spill onto her arm. The material her uniform was made out of melted and stuck to her skin, giving her severe burns to her upper and lower arm.
She was required to wear this unifom by company rules. Company has hot coffee. What was the result? Nothing. It was deemed an accident, and no one was to blame.

To me, my girlfriends case would have a lot more bearing than someone driving through McDonalds. After all, she was required to wear the uniform that melted to her skin.

[3Fitty]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Like I said, I guess we all don't see eye to eye on this. I just don't agree with the actions that have taken place. Kind of like sueing McDonalds because your coffee was too hot and you spilled it on yourself....

Sorry Nick, can't let the second biggest litigation myth pass without challenge.

Read the real story about the McDonald's case here http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0122-11.htm

You'll see that McDonalds was heating their coffee 30-50 degrees hotter than what it should've been because it extended the life of the coffee thereby increasing $$$.

[Nick Chapman]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

I guess we all don't see eye to eye on this subject. You're are doing nothing more than going after the group with the deepest pockets. Your fight is with the detailing company that the dealership hired at best, not Nissan Motor Corp.

A comparable situation would be me, as a detailer, using Meguiar's products. I recently had a situation where APC+ had a negative reaction to a customers seats. This reaction cause the color to change on the black seats.
Here is a picture...


Should Meguiar's be responsible? No, it's my own fault. In your case, Nissan Motor Corp did nothing wrong here, the dealership did nothing wrong here, however the detailers that the dealership hired(most dealerships hire an outside company to take care of their vehicles) would be the ones directly responsible. But no one has mentioned them?

Swirls will happen reguardless of how well you take care of your vehicle. Just like brakes will wear out on your vehicle no matter what. It's all part of owning a vehicle.


Like I said, I guess we all don't see eye to eye on this. I just don't agree with the actions that have taken place. Kind of like sueing McDonalds because your coffee was too hot and you spilled it on yourself....

[davidw]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Are you sure the detail shop didn't just fill the swirls in? If they were filled, the filler will generally wash away and the swirls will come back. If the scratches are in the clear coat, that comes from improper technique. Paint look anything like this?

Originally posted:
Ferrari 550 Maranello, SHES A SHINEY NOW!
Superior Shine

If so, a repaint will only fix that until someone who uses improper technique and dirty supplies touches the paint again, such as probably 99.9% of those "hand wash" places. The paint may actually be worse of because they may use a paint that swirls even easier than what is on there now! Suing anyone and having them repaint you car is not right, IMO, because it is not their fault that the people touching your car don't know how to properly fix the problem or cause it from happening.

THX.. But as I stated, car came that way and I've been complaining since delivery.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Thank you for taking the time to clarify. I really appreciate it and it makes total sense. What gets me is that I see other black cars ( other mfg's ) that have very little swirlage compared to mine but I guess as you state, the technology may differ.
I will post as the LL suit progresses.

My friend and a Professional Detailer on the East Coast, Lenny House recently had a real bad experience with a 2008 Infinity G35

Nothing they used on it would create a 100% swirl free finish and the owner of the car was upset.

My recommendation and Lenny's recommendation was to take the car with it's paint job back to the dealership and as the dealership to "demonstrate" how a person was supposed to use the recommended products to remove the swirls and create a 100% swirl free finish.

Last I heard the dealership wouldn't do it and my guess is the reason they wouldn't do it was because they knew they couldn't do it, especially in front of a trained professional detailer.

The swirl problems everyone has with their new cars can almost always be traced back to the paint systems. If enough consumers voice their opinions maybe someday paint manufactures will start making paints for car manufactures that the average person can work on successfully.

Until then... :wall :wall :wall

[roushstage2]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

I hope Im in the right forum for this:

I have a LL suit against Nissan for horrible paint on 2008 Armada.
Nothing but zillions of swirls and spider webbing over entire vehicle ( black ). I've complained since day one and Nissan has agreed to let me have it repaired by a local shop. It was a 3 step polishing job that lasted for 1 month then the swirls came back. The shop did the process again. Swirls came right back.. I was told that it is scratches in the clear coat. After further complaints to Nissan, they basically told me to go away so I filed a lemon law suit for the issue. The arbitrator ruled in my favor saying that the paint job IS defective and Nissan has 30 days to correct problem. What could they actually do to fix this. I was told that if they did a repaint ( which they hav not offered yet ) the value of the car would be greatly deminished. Is there a permanent cure for my problem...
I've read some other threads about swirls but I'm not confident that Nissan has the knowledge to repair. Any feedback is welcome....

Are you sure the detail shop didn't just fill the swirls in? If they were filled, the filler will generally wash away and the swirls will come back. If the scratches are in the clear coat, that comes from improper technique. Paint look anything like this?

Originally posted:
Ferrari 550 Maranello, SHES A SHINEY NOW!
Superior Shine

If so, a repaint will only fix that until someone who uses improper technique and dirty supplies touches the paint again, such as probably 99.9% of those "hand wash" places. The paint may actually be worse of because they may use a paint that swirls even easier than what is on there now! Suing anyone and having them repaint you car is not right, IMO, because it is not their fault that the people touching your car don't know how to properly fix the problem or cause it from happening.

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Good luck as you resolve this issue. I liked Nick's advice about using this forum to properly educate yourself about swirls and scratches. Hoe to minimize their occurrence, etc. These swirls were probably due to the dealer improperly prepping your car. I would think that Nissan and the dealer would want to work this out together. It is a shame how you had to sue to get relief. Whatever happened to customer service after the sale? Good luck.

[davidw]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Thank you for taking the time to clarify. I really appreciate it and it makes total sence. What gets me is that I see other black cars ( other mfg's ) that have very little swirlage compared to mine but I guess as you state, the technology may differ.
I will post as the LL suit progresses.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

For what it's worth...

About the only way to keep a clear coat finish swirl free is to not touch the paint, this means parking the car in a garage, covering it with a quality car cover or soft blanket and let it sit.

If you do this you won't get any swirls and scratches because the paint won't see any use let alone wear and tear.

Clear coat paints tend to be harder than traditional single stage paints but they still scratch very easily and because the scratch is in a clear layer of paint over a color coat, the swirls and scratches show up very easily to our eyes. Because the clear coat is hard, (see first sentence in this paragraph), it's hard for you and me to remove the swirls and scratches.

This is why this forum, our products and tools like the DA Polisher are so popular and thats because we as a company cater to people who love their cars but don't want the swirls. We do our best to educate people the above, (clear coat paints are hard and scratch easily), and how to remove them and more important how to prevent them. This all takes a lot of work and constant maintenance and care on your side in that for the most part if you want a swirl free finish then you have to take ownership of the washing process and many people don't want to do this, so the clear layer of paint gets swirls and scratches and thats how things are.

To the fault of car manufactures, as far as I know they don't tell paint manufactures that one of the things they're looking for in a paint system for the cars they manufactures are paints that,

A. Don't swirl and scratch easily.

B. When they do swirl and scratch, the AVERAGE person, with average skills can remove them


So maybe your lawsuit will start ALL car manufactures down the road of applying paints to their cars that are a lot more users friendly as compared to what they give us now.

One more note...

It's possible that your Nissan actually does have a clear coat paint that's new technology and dramatically different than all the other clear paints on the market, if this is the case then perhaps repainting using a more traditional basecoat/clearcoat paint system will help with the swirl and scratch problem. Maybe.

If the paint system they're using is much like most of the other basecoat/clearcoat systems on the market then repainting isn't going to solve the problem. Clear coat paints scratch easily and the scratches are easy to see.

Welcome to basecoat/clearcoat technology.


While working on older single stage paints is a bit more messy because the color of the car comes off onto your applicator pads, buffing pads and polishing cloths, at least older single stage paints tend to be easier to work on for the average person.

Best of luck to you...

[3Fitty]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Good job!

[davidw]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

"The dealership is an "agent" of the manufacturer. In other words, they work together in a symbiotic relationship to yield a profit for both. They work in concert with one another.

So, that doesn't mean the manufacturer can't go after the dealership, but why should the consumer have to worry about that. David bought a car, he expected it to be delivered in a certain condition and it wasn't. Let the dealership and the manufacturer figure out who is to blame and work it out between the two. Unless they can show that David was somehow negligent in the care of his care of the car, I say good on him. "

At the arbitration hearing, Nissan USA tried to blame the dealer because they said the car was delivered to them witht he white plastic and the dealer accepted the vehicle. It's kind of nuts how Nissan USA wants to put the blame on the dealer who is selling their product. I think the problem is that maybe the dealer has no clue how to prep a new vehicle. If I leased the thing, I wouldn"t care but 52 g's is alot of dough to have a car that looks like someone prepped it with sandpaper.

[3Fitty]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

I don't think it's such a good thing though. People shouldn't be able to sue a manufature for swirls on their paint. I honestly don't think that should be grounds for a suit to be filed. But this is just my opinion, and I'm sure someone will disagree with me. Claims like this are part of the reason prices get so high.

Nick

Actually, this is a myth perpetuated by insurance companies but rarely challenged so it has kind of become accepted as simply true. Every major study done on the issue has proved it wrong. http://makethemaccountable.com/myth/...eInsurance.htm

In any event, on the substantive issue, the standard for a LL claim (as I know them) is usually two fold:

1. The car is NOT driveable for a period of time (each state is different). NJ requires 20 days in the first 2 years, NY says 30 days in the first 18 months (each has a mileage limit as well).

2. The defect "substantially" impairs the value of the car. I guess that is how david made his claim.

Now, in this example someone suggested "it was probably the dealer" therefore the manufacturer should not be responsible. Well, I disagree and I think the law does as well. Here's why..

The dealership is an "agent" of the manufacturer. In other words, they work together in a symbiotic relationship to yield a profit for both. They work in concert with one another.

So, that doesn't mean the manufacturer can't go after the dealership, but why should the consumer have to worry about that. David bought a car, he expected it to be delivered in a certain condition and it wasn't. Let the dealership and the manufacturer figure out who is to blame and work it out between the two. Unless they can show that David was somehow negligent in the care of his care of the car, I say good on him.

When my Lexus went Lemon, I am about 90% sure it was the dealership who messed it up but Lexus and the dealership need to work things out between themselves.

[davidw]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

I'm sure the swirls have nothing to do with nissan or your car having defective paint.... just the dealer who washed it for you.... after all your car is black and the slightest contact with anything on black causes swirls..... this happens on any car and any color but just more apparent on black cars..... on this forum, we learn the ways to minimize the possibilities of swirls and also ways of fixing them....

stop suing nissan and look for a better place to do car wash where they take care not to inflict swirls onto your finish.....

I agree and I do think the swirls were created by the dealership prepping the car. They need to learn to learn how to do a better job with new car prepping IMO...

[davidw]

Re: Lemon Law for Defective Paint

Oh, and davidw, I mean absolutely no disrespect towards you here. Please don't let my words speak for the entire forum. There is a wealth of knowledge here, and if you stick around, you will learn a TON about proper vehicle care.

None taken.. thx . I came for feedback and knowledge and I appreciate all responses.

The suit came about because the dealer delivered the car to me like that and they wouldnt do anything until I called Nissan consumer affairs. Maybe I should have just sued the stelaership instead...