Thoughts from a Zainohead/Vendor...

[SL1CK]

other guy on the Cadillac forums who is a Zaino vendor had this to say:

Originally posted by HCVONE

If you are using a cleaner wax products (most over the counter products are cleaner wax products) you really gain nothing by waxing many times with these products, because they are taking off whatever you put on the surface the application before. If you are using over the counter products the Mother's Reflection products are pretty good, but your top rated products must be purchased online.

Wouldn't you disagree? For the most part?

[Mike Phillips]

Their entire argument is based upon their theory they are actually able to increase the thickness of the coating they are applying with repeated applications.

To date... no one has ever proved this, let alone even tried.

[SL1CK]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Their entire argument is based upon their theory they are actually able to increase the thickness of the coating they are applying with repeated applications.

To date... no one has ever proved this, let alone even tried.

Readlly, they think they increase the thickness of the coating?? Wow, didn't know that...

[Michael Stoops]

It seems to make sense that an attempt at layering a cleaner-wax would result in just what he says, since the cleaning aspect would, by nature, remove the previous coat.

But not all waxes are cleaner-waxes so that theory wouldn't necessarily apply to those. If his definition of "top rated" is the same as "boutique" waxes, then yes, I suppose you do need to purchase those online for the most part.

For the record, I've used Zaino and gotten really good results. But I've found I can get the same results with Meguiar's products and far, far more economically. While I'm more than willing and able to spend a good deal of money to keep my cars looking good, I also have an affinity for keeping as much of my hard earned cash in my pocket as possible.

[Mikeyc]

Yup. Sal Zaino is a marketing genius. Personally, I think you can get the same results with Meguiar's products for less money. My favorite is that Sal gets Zaino zombies to pay extra for ZFX.

What's ZFX you ask? Well you add it to your sealant to get it to cure faster of course. Why would you want your sealant to cure faster you ask? So that you can add more layers of sealant faster of course.

I love it! Not only is Sal getting people to buy ZFX as an add on, but the ZFX gets you to use up your sealant faster Z-1,000,000 or something like that.

Even better than that is Sal says if you mix your sealant with ZFX whatever portion you don't use you should throw away after 24 hours. OMG, I've never seen a manufacturer before convince consumers to use up their supply of products so quickly.

People say Zymol is a marketing machine with their marque specific waxes. Well, IMO Chuck Benett has nothing on Sal Zaino when it comes to marketing.

[Mosca]

"Top rated products must be purchased on line."

Just another guy repeating what he's heard. Another elitist, poisoning minds, using product exclusivity to stratify people and make them feel inadequate because of their choices.

Give me $70 worth of ColorX and my car will look just as good for just as long as a Zaino user's car will, with just about the same amount of work.

Look past the hype. At the end of the day the car either shines or it doesn't, and everything else is mere posturing.


Tom

[gb387]

Interesting thread.... good reading. Mikeyc, don't know much about Zaino but ! Meguiars gets my money!

[Mikeyc]

I feel like I've used it myself because I've read so much about Zaino on detailing boards and in the wash & wax forum of my owner's club.

ZFX and layering are one of my favorite Zaino marketing ploys. But my second favorite has to do with the size products Sal sells. According to what I've heard from Zaino users different parts of the kit come in varying sizes. What inevitably happens is that you run out of one part before the other. So, you can never use up all parts of the kit at the same time. Essentially, this locks you into the kit if you insist on using up everything you bought.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by SL1CK
Really, they think they increase the thickness of the coating?? Wow, didn't know that...

Well what else would be the point of layering?


think about it, look at the definition of the word Layer. In fact, how about someone go out and snag the definition of the word Layer and post it here? How about just for fun, copy and paste the definition of the word/term Layer from a couple of different online dictionary's so we have a good, all-around understanding of what the word layer means and then let's make sure we understand why anyone would go to the work and effort of applying, 3, 4, 5, 6, 30, 60, 90 or more "Layers", of a product if they were not doing it because they had been Educated by their peers online that adding more layers, i.e. applications actually meant they were building-up more protection, or in simpler terms, a greater thickness of protection.

I mean think about it, if you're not increasing the thickness of the film-build or protection with each additional layer of product applied....

Why would you continue to apply layer, after layer, after layer of said product.

And I've been reading for years now the affirmation of the ability to layer this product by all of these, Self-Proclaimed Gurus, so please someone,

A) Prove this product can indeed be layered

or

B) Explain why if it can't be layered, (Because it cannot be proved), why any rational person would continue to apply more and more applications after 2-3 applications where Meguiar's states that after 2-3 applications, The point of diminishing returns kicks in and there is no longer any benefit to applying more and more applications, (layering), until you first let time go by and wear & tear take place to wear off the previously applied applications and create a situation where it's time to re-apply a product to return the finish to the previously achieved plateau.

By the way, I've already completely explained all of this here,


What's the Deal with "Layering"?


In all honesty, the idea of Layering is Marketing Genius, in that while layering may not be taking place on the finish, it is taking place in someone's bank account.

[sneek]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Well what else would be the point of layering?

In all honesty, the idea of Layering is Marketing Genius, in that while layering may not be taking place on the finish, it is taking place in someone's bank account.

!!

[SL1CK]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
In all honesty, the idea of Layering is Marketing Genius, in that while layering may not be taking place on the finish, it is taking place in someone's bank account. [/B]

Thats the truth! But I guess what I meant is that I thought that THEY thought that they were somehow, creating NEW clearcoat, as in replenishing it if you catch my drift.

The idea of selling the same product in different sizes is almost absurd, but the guy know how to take peoples money!

[miked2]

What I've noticed about the "boutique" waxes is that typically (or at least often) they are tied to a particular vendor. So, an online store decides to make their own wax (no different than Safeway's "house brand" laundry detergent), and sell it themselves, for more profit. The big marketing trick that they've done is make these "house brands" *premium* priced, instead of lower priced as at the grocery stores. Brilliant!

The irony is that these folks are not chemists. They're marketers. So they have someone else basically designing the products. This is so different than Meguiar's, and some others (Mothers, Zymol, etc.), which have their own chemists make the stuff. For a lot of folks, price equals quality, and so they're willing to spend more to say that they have a better product, etc.

At the end of the day, however, I would argue that product is at most 50% of the equation. Technique -- proper paint prep, etc. -- is at least 50% of the equation. I would imagine that if you have someone like Mike Phillips doing the detailing, and he did five cars with five different brands of products, that they would all look fabulous, and no one could really tell which products were the OTC Meg's stuff, and which were the boutique Internet-only stuff. That's not to say that there's no difference among products (indeed, I find Meg's to be at least as high quality as the boutique stuff), but that technique plays so much more of a factor in things than people seem to think.

[Mikeyc]

Let me say that I am a HUGE proponent of trying different products. Most of my details are patchworks of multiple brands of products. I never use 100% the same brand of products throughout an entire detail. However, I absolutely REFUSE to try Zaino.

Mostly I am put off the product by its fanatical users. However, it also really burns me that Zaino's wild popularity has in fact hurt the spread of detailing knowledge. Sure, Zaino has gotten a lot of people to detail their cars, but at what cost? These guys are out there layering meaninglessly (unless you look at Sal's bank account - good one Mike) and washing their cars with Dawn.

I've been reading, talking, and learning about detailing since before I could drive. Washing your car with dish washing soap was widely considered a bad idea until Zaino came along. Even Dawn recommends you not use their product to wash cars. Sal even recommended using cotton towels instead of microfiber until only recently.

[miked2]

I have to say that I have tried a lot of different brands, and where Meg's sells an equivalent product, I've found the Meg's product to be at least as good, and typically cheaper. Can't beat that combo!

The non-Meg's stuff I still use is really limited: Raggtopp convertible top cleaner; Raggtop convertible top protectant (though, for the last two items, I have noticed that Meg's sells similar items in their marine line, but we'll probably get rid of our Vert before the Raggtopp stuff is used up); Klasse acrylic sealant (it does last really long, although I feel it only gives 85% or so of the gloss that a Meg's wax does -- I would love if Meg's came out with an acrylic); and, on order, a "rinseless wash" product from Detailer's Pride and a "waterless wash" product from DP as well. The waterless wash I am just curious about, as I'm thinking it's just Quick Detailer on steroids, and am not sure how useful it will be. I really like the rinseless wash idea, and, mikeyc, your review on a different forum convinced me to try out the DP product. I'm hoping that Meg's comes out with a similar product at some point. I also have some Griot's glass polish that works well.

The "hard items" that Meg's sells are higher priced, though. I have found that their various MF towels, drying magnet, etc., to outperform the generics, however, so they may be worth the price. I have basically one of each Meg's variety, and a bunch of generics. Applicator (foam) pads I can't really tell the difference on. I've been using Griot's pads for the PC, and just put an order in for the Meg's equivalents for comparison purposes.

Further, the Versa brushes are a really great product, and they don't really have an equivalent from anyone else. The brushes are incredibly soft (the body brushes), and I like the interchangeability and the switchability of orientation . . . I just want a very low-profile wheel well brush!

[Deaner5]

I was close to trying Zaino's stuff and probably would have sometime this summer had I not stumbled across MOL. And like many of you I like my money.