Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

[Lord Melch]

Where is that ScratchX video ?

Mike (Phillips) - Where's that excellent video demonstrating the ScratchX technique? You know ... the one with the green Benz. Is that you in the video, BTW?

It was on You Tube but seems to have been removed ?
I have seem web sites offering to sell it..

Where did it go ?

[clutchhappy]

Re: Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

.....and so starts the "adventure". I'll keep you posted with pictures.

Thanks Mike!

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

Few questions. First, sorry for the ignorance but what is a DA polisher? Not the same as an orbital buffer, right?

So much information in this single forum group...

Hot Topics

Like this one that's actually a "Sticky"

Machine Photos - DA Polishers - Rotary Buffers - Traditional Orbital Buffers

DA Polisher is the generic term for smaller, more powerful and efficient random orbital polishers. Instead of typing anymore on this topic, click the link above and look at the pictures as there's a collection of pictures of DA Polishers and Traditional Orbital Polishers and then click the below links because anytime there's a questions or topic that is brought up often it usually gets a place in Hot Topics

and these two threads will completely explain what you want to know.

Rotary vs DA Polisher vs Traditional Orbital Buffer
Please explain Pros/Cons between Rotary and Orbital Buffers

Second, as to Scratch X not being aggressive enough, I'm really leery of doing something that will permanently damage the paint, (is it possible to go through the clear coat for example). Is that possible to do with these compounds?

This is always an interesting question because usually the problem people have is removing swirls, (that means removing paint), in most cases most people cant get the swirls out, another way of saying this is they can't remove enough paint.

Yet the concern is their afraid of removing too much paint.

See the irony? They can't remove enough paint and in some cases any paint at all by hand and they're worried about removing too much paint.

Take our word for it, it's the least of your worries when working by hand or with a DA Polisher. Your focus should be on removing enough paint to level the surface and thus remove the swirls.


If you really want a swirl free finish on this car you've bought, then the best way to get it and maintain it will be to invest in our G110 and learn to use it. The human hand can never outperform the machine. We demonstrate this at everyone of our Saturday and Thursday Night classes and have been doing theses classes at Meguiar's, coordinated through the forum since 2002. Meguiar's has been teaching people this since the first machine buffer was introduced, I'll guess sometime in the 1920's as we've been around since before the buffer was invented and around before most people owned a car.

Our new G110 offers more power than the Porter Cable unit we used to sell and most the other detailing websites sell and this will make all the difference in the world 10 minutes into ANY detailing project. Not a sales pitch at all, the truth based upon real-world experience buffing out cars and teaching others how to buff out cars.

I cannot count how many guys have come to Meguiar's thinking the best results come from hand polishing and that machines are all dangerous and then leave thinking the best finishes are always achieved by machine and when used with the right pads, products and techniques, they are completely safe.

Third, (and here you'll see my loyalty to Meguiar's), I have 3 Mirror Glaze products that I used to restore paint on a few cars I have owned. #1 which is called a "medium-cut cleaner", #4 which is the "professional cleaner", and #9 which is the "swirl remover". Will any of these work as a substitute for M-105? And if M-105 is easier and much less likely for me to ruin something, let me know that too.

M01 Medium Cut Cleaner and M04 Heavy Cut Cleaner were introduced probably in the 1920's or 1930's, it's hard to get hard data on these old products because there's not a lot of information available. We started a special forum to share pictures and document Meguiar's history here,

Blast from the past

M01 and M04 are both for use with a rotary buffer ONLY. If you try to apply them by hand to a clear coat finish they will scour the paint. M105 uses COMPLETELY different and brand new technology. Read more about it here,

What's the difference between Meguiar's Super Micro Abrasive technology and Meguiar's Diminishing Abrasive technology?

M09 Swirl Remover, since then reformulated and now called M09 Swirl Remover 2.0 is our lightest cleaner/polish and most effective for removing swirls when applied with a rotary buffer but it can be used with a DA Polisher if the swirls are not too deep and the paint is not too hard.

You might be able to remove these swirls with your M09 with a DA Polisher but you wouldn't know until you tried a test spot and then inspected your results.

M105 is pretty much "Bubba-Proof", you do have to use common sense just like you would with any paint care product and do thing like make sure the car is clean, your buffing pads or applicator pads are clean, etc. and of course use good technique.

Most people when trying to work scratches and swirls out of a clear coat finish try to tackle too large of an area at one time, they don't use uniform pressure and they don't uniformly work each square inch of paint.

Again, clear coats are a completely different animal compared to a single stage paint, they scratch easily and because the scratch is in a clear layer over the top of a colored paint the scratches in the clear are opaque or whitish and they show up easily to your eyes in the sun or bright light.

Clear coats paints can last a long time, but people confuse this to mean look good a long time and that's just not the case, you cans wash a clear coated car with an SOS pad and scour the heck out of the paint and it will still last a long time but it sure won't look good a long time and that's in part due to the resin technology which leads to the hardness factor. That's not to say all clear coat paints are hard as we've seen some cars that will scratch just by looking at them but here's how we would type this up on the forum so that no holes can be punched through it.

"Generally speaking, modern clear coat paints are harder than traditional single stage paints"

That is to say, in all likelihood, the paint on a brand new Mustang will be harder than the original paint that came on a 1965 Mustang.

What that means to you and I is that when we go out into our garage to work on our new car with modern paint in most cases it's going to be more difficult to remove the swirls and scratches versus if we were working on an old Mustang.

Make sense?

Keep in mind, Meguiar's doesn't make the paint, Paint Manufactures make it to Car Manufactures specifications, so the frustration people experience is the fault of the car manufactures and to date not enough people have voiced their frustration in a way that car manufactures are willing to do something about it.

Here's an example of this frustration... a guy that joined our forum just to vent and we never seen him again...

My Hatred of Clear Coats

Check out his post and my reply...

Last, which product to use with the DA polisher, and which one by hand.

Thanks again, hopefully I can bring this one back too.

Meguiar's always teaches the philosophy of using the least aggressive product to get the job done, with that in mind, our least aggressive products for use with a DA Polisher that would hopefully remove the light swirls in your car's paint would be

ScratchX - This is a light paint cleaner can be used with a DA Polisher or by hand.
M09 Swirl Remover 2.0 - This is a light cleaner/polish that can be used with a DA Polisher or by hand.

Our new M105 is not officially recommend for use with a DA Polisher or an Orbital Polisher but many people including myself have had great results using it this way.

By hand, M105 is the hands-down winner for effectiveness and ease of use when it comes to removing swirls and scratches.

Hope this helps... have to go put my fingertips in ice...

[clutchhappy]

Re: Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

Thanks Mike.
Few questions. First, sorry for the ignorance but what is a DA polisher? Not the same as an orbital buffer, right?
Second, as to Scratch X not being aggressive enough, I'm really leery of doing something that will permanently damage the paint, (is it possible to go through the clear coat for example). Is that possible to do with these compounds?
Third, (and here you'll see my loyalty to Meguiars), I have 3 Mirror Glaze products that I used to restore paint on a few cars I have owned. #1 which is called a "medium-cut cleaner", #4 which is the "professional cleaner", and #9 which is the "swirl remover". Will any of these work as a substitute for M-105? And if M-105 is easier and much less likely for me to ruin something, let me know that too.
Last, which product to use with the DA polisher, and which one by hand.

Thanks again, hopefully I can bring this one back too.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

I got my car, (2007 Black Altima), back from a body shop and on the newly painted surfaces there were long, very noticeable swirl marks. After 3 returns to them I gave up on their ability to remove the marks.

If they don't do it right the first time, they won't be be able to do it a second or third time. There are mostly "Horror Stories" on detailing discussion forums when it comes to the quality of paint polishing done at body shops and dealerships, like this one that the customer's experience was so horrific that the dealership did the right thing and took the car back and gave him his money back.

Are holograms and buffer swirl the norm for a black car?

And all of this is related to clear coat paints and how difficult they are to work on, not only for owner/enthusiasts but even for the people that supposed to be professionals, that is the people at body shops, detail shops and dealerships that are paid to do this kind of work.

Clear coats are not user friendly. They're not like the old single stage lacquer and enamel paints used before 1980. That's why when we have the opportunity to do extreme makeovers on older cars we jump on it and the turn-out of members from our forum in the SoCal area is always phenomenal as it's actually kind of fun to work on an old single stage paint job.

Just by coincidence, last Thursday night we had two cars with single stage paint and 25 people turned out to help restore the paint.

Extreme Makeover - August 21st
Double Duty Extreme Makeover

Here's our Transformation Team! They rocked tonight!


Both cars now glisten like highly polished diamonds!



Click here to read more or add your comments...

I decided to try some NXT Generation Wax to get rid of them, (I had used it before on my 2005 Altima for swirl marks the detailer put in the new car before delivery). Yes, I'm anal on how the paint should look too.

Although I has incredible success on the 2005, it did not help much on the 2007.

NXT is not a cleaner/wax, it can mask light swirls but it will not remove them. This article is a "Sticky" in our Hot Topics forum because we reference it so often to explain to people what it means to actually remove below surface defects.

What it means to remove a scratch out of anything...

So I decided to try Scratch X before applying the wax. Scratch X took out the long swirl marks, but left small marks that kind of looked like leopard print.

This "Leopard Print" appearance you reference is what is called,

"Finger Marks"

It's caused by your the pressure of your fingers against your choice of application material and shows up in the paint at the ends of your rubbing motions, or at the ends of your throw. Which I could explain this with a video but all I have is a keyboard. Basically where your fingers pushing against your application material stops at the end of your through and you reverse the direction of your hand, there is a brief moment where your fingers have stopped and this leaves "Finger Marks" in the paint.

Somewhere on my personal computer I have a picture of this on our black Honda Pilot where I captured this phenomenal on film after testing a competitor's swirl mark remover. I'll try to find it but that's what the Leopard Print appearance you're seeing is.

Again this is due to two things, one is the thing you're working on, (clear coat paints), and the other is a combination of your technique and application material. These are actually a type of scratch and as the article linked to above explains, you'll have to remove some paint to remove them just like you had to remove some paint to remove the scratches the body shop inflicted.

I called the help line and they said also to use a foam pad as an applicator instead of terry cloth. I did that and removed the excess with a towel and it seemed to work.

Currently at this time in the world, we only have a few options for application material that work to apply car care products, these are primarily foam, microfiber and cotton with cotton being the most aggressive of the three and foam and quality microfiber being more gentle.

I then used Scratch X over the whole car, then followed up with the NXT Generation wax, again using the foam pad to apply and a terry bonnet with an orbital polisher to buff the wax. The shine is excellent. But after awhile I started to notice the small prints as before. Now, looking at the car, even though the car is dirty, the marks are highly noticeable, (see enclosed picture).

You'll need to spend more time leveling the surface. More than likely ScratchX won't be aggressive enough or you'll need to use it with a more powerful tool like a DA Polisher.

Just to note, DA Polishers have become more and more popular over the last 15+ years as people become frustrated trying to remove swirls and scratches out of clear coat paints by hand and discover how difficult it is.

I am truly stumped. I have used Meguiar's products for well over 10 years, and have always been able to correct paint problems, (even heavily oxidized red paint), and bring the paint to better than new condition.

Yep.

Single stage paints oxidize and clear coat paints get ugly with swirls and scratches. Different types of defects, one type is easy to fix and the other requires, head knowledge first and then taking what you know and applying it.

This was relatively easy compared to removing the swirls out of a clear coat finish.


Blast from the Past! - The dead brought back to life!

Before - Yes the paint is actually turning from red to white in some places


After



Removing swirls out of a clear coat finish requires an understanding as to how the paint works and how your product work and the technique for working the products.

The passenger side was done by hand, the driver's side was done with a DA Polisher.

Before


After



You can work your car's finish up to show car quality by hand but it will take time and technique and instead of using ScratchX you'll find it easier and faster to use our new M105 Ultra Cut Compound with a foam applicator pad and only work small sections at a time when you do the cleaning step. (That's the step where you work a paint cleaner like ScratchX or a compound like M105 to remove below surface defects, see Meguiar's 5-Step Paint Care Cycle )

[clutchhappy]

Re: Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

Thanks very much for the replies. I am leaning towards benhui86's response; I'll tell you why and again I thank you in advance for your opinions.

As you look at the picture, the damaged part of the car was the front fender and front door. They buffed those and a little of the rear door. The quarter panel has never been touched by their buffer. But as you look at the car the little marks are front to back even on the other side of the car.


Second, I bought the NXT wax back in 2005 when I got my '05 Altima. The detailer at the dealership buffed the **** out of a couple scratches before it was delivered, and after trying a few different waxes, the NXT was the only one, (all by itself no less), to take out the buff marks. So, I have been using NXT for over 2 years on black paint, many times using the terry bonnet and sometimes even applying with an old sweat sock, (after through the washing machine).

This is a problem I have never run into before.

If I look at these factors I have to say that the only thing different is the Scratch X. If there is still residue on it, and NXT wax over top, then what would the solution be?

Thanks again, I need your help. Here's what she looked like last summer, and why I am so bummed...

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

The first clue was I just got it back from the body shop. Then you say it was returned 3 times to correct the swirls. Was it returned the first time after 45- 60 days for the paint to cure. It is entirely possible by not waiting for the paint to cure this is going to require someone skilled with a rotary to get the paint looking like it should.


If you go this route make sure that the paint is fully cured. If the body shop tried to correct the problem before it cured maybe they will redo it free or at a reduced price. Good luck.

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

I would like to respectfully disagree with the above responses. I have what I believe to be the same problem as CBLW.

Yikes! Well for starters you can't have the same problem because you are dealing with fresh paint- so it's an entirely different situation that would reqire an entirely different solution.

The body shop should have properly explained to you that paint has a cure time and shouldn't even be waxed for at least 30 days, sometimes they go as far as 60 days.

Also, with all of the different attempts at removing the swirls by the body shop, compounded with your multiple attempts and methods it sure makes it hard to try and point fingers at any product, I would think. Too many variables...

I'm afraid the damage was put into soft paint, which now hardened, and it just may require some serious hitting tools like such as a rotary. Looking at that car, though, that sure does NOT look even remotely possible that it was put there from ScratchX. Maybe a HORRIBLE towel that had ScratchX on it, but NOT ScratchX....

[benhui86]

Re: Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

I would like to respectfully disagree with the above responses. I have what I believe to be the same problem as CBLW.
I called in to your help number a couple weeks ago on this same problem.
I got my car, (2007 Black Altima), back from a body shop and on the newly painted surfaces there were long, very noticeable swirl marks. After 3 returns to them I gave up on their ability to remove the marks. I decided to try some NXT Generation Wax to get rid of them, (I had used it before on my 2005 Altima for swirl marks the detailer put in the new car before delivery). Yes, I'm anal on how the paint should look too.
Although I has incredible success on the 2005, it did not help much on the 2007. So I decided to try Scratch X before applying the wax. Scratch X took out the long swirl marks, but left small marks that kind of looked like leopard print. I called the help line and they said also to use a foam pad as an applicator instead of terry cloth. I did that and removed the excess with a towel and it seemed to work. I then used Scratch X over the whole car, then followed up with the NXT Generation wax, again using the foam pad to apply and a terry bonnet with an orbital polisher to buff the wax. The shine is excellent. But after awhile I started to notice the small prints as before. Now, looking at the car, even though the car is dirty, the marks are highly noticeable, (see enclosed picture).
I am truly stumped. I have used Meguiars products for well over 10 years, and have always been able to correct paint problems, (even heavily oxidized red paint), and bring the paint to better than new condition. I don't know how I could have done the whole car, (with some portions swirled and some definitely not), and get completely even, tiny swirl marks over the entire car.
Please help!

Thanks!

those are residue..... im sure because i get them if i dont scrub off the scratch X good enough...... scratch X cakes on the paint sometimes and thats what happens..... except yours is on a much larger scale..... your solution would be a car wash and a good scrub with quik detailer with a nice clean microfiber towel to remove all the caked on residue.... scratch X cakes on pretty hard sometimes so you have to rub with a bit of pressure...

it is possible that clay can make the process a little easier but i never tried that before

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

First off, welcome to MOL.

a terry bonnet with an orbital polisher to buff the wax.

With scratch sensitive paint the use of terry cloth is generally not recommended for anything but the very lightest touch, if even that. Earlier in this thread it was determined that the use of terry cloth just compounded the issue CBLW was having, so using a terry cloth bonnet on a machine to remove the hazed NXT Tech Wax would have a high probability of inflicting some marring. And, since these potential marks would be machine inflicted it would also be very likely that they would exhibit a high degree of uniformity.

I don't know how I could have done the whole car, (with some portions swirled and some definitely not), and get completely even, tiny swirl marks over the entire car.

Scratch sensitive black paint, especially a fresh repaint that is potentially VERY scratch sensitive, that has had terry cloth machine applied to every panel - it's not a huge surprise that you now have this issue. A thin coat of NXT Tech Wax that is allowed to dry fully is extremely to remove by simply hand wiping with a microfiber towel.

[clutchhappy]

Re: Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

I would like to respectfully disagree with the above responses. I have what I believe to be the same problem as CBLW.
I called in to your help number a couple weeks ago on this same problem.
I got my car, (2007 Black Altima), back from a body shop and on the newly painted surfaces there were long, very noticeable swirl marks. After 3 returns to them I gave up on their ability to remove the marks. I decided to try some NXT Generation Wax to get rid of them, (I had used it before on my 2005 Altima for swirl marks the detailer put in the new car before delivery). Yes, I'm anal on how the paint should look too.
Although I has incredible success on the 2005, it did not help much on the 2007. So I decided to try Scratch X before applying the wax. Scratch X took out the long swirl marks, but left small marks that kind of looked like leopard print. I called the help line and they said also to use a foam pad as an applicator instead of terry cloth. I did that and removed the excess with a towel and it seemed to work. I then used Scratch X over the whole car, then followed up with the NXT Generation wax, again using the foam pad to apply and a terry bonnet with an orbital polisher to buff the wax. The shine is excellent. But after awhile I started to notice the small prints as before. Now, looking at the car, even though the car is dirty, the marks are highly noticeable, (see enclosed picture).
I am truly stumped. I have used Meguiars products for well over 10 years, and have always been able to correct paint problems, (even heavily oxidized red paint), and bring the paint to better than new condition. I don't know how I could have done the whole car, (with some portions swirled and some definitely not), and get completely even, tiny swirl marks over the entire car.
Please help!

Thanks!

[somarr]

Re: Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

I would like to add (don't think it was mentioned in addition to all of the obvious comments) that for any application you should always do a test spot. In addition to the least aggressive product, you should start with the least agressive applicator. All of these products work if you are using the proper technique.

I work by hand and hope to move to machine later this year.

I will have to agree (I'm no pro) but paints are different. My Chevy S-10 definitely is not affected by applying ScratchX. On the other hand, my 2 Honda's have soft paint relative to the Chevy and ScratchX works like a charm.

Glad you resolved your issues.

[08MKZ]

Re: Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

Glad to hear your working your problems out. I also bought a black car. It's only 2 months old and I have swirls already. I'm very anal with the way I care for the car and I still have swirl marks. It's my daily driver so I realize it's impossible to keep it perfect. I just ordered the DA polisher and will bring it back to better then new conditions with the help of all these members on this great forum. Also it takes a man to admit when he's wrong and I commend you for that. Good luck with the car.

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

The only other thing I would like to add is when you are finished with the scratch-x, make sure you apply some wax on the affected areas. Glad everything worked out for you. Congrats.

[VonLego]

Re: Scratch X Is Killing My New Car. HELP.

Excellent work! One thing to be afraid of... your wash method! With sensitive black paint automated car washes will eat it alive! Be kind to it and wash it by hand!

FYI-- Swirl marks will come up in anything less than perfect conditions. To keep a near perfect car, expect a full detail at least once a year (most do twice). Wax every month or two. Two bucket method wash every week or two. These are (in my oppinion) an ideal to shoot for. Needless to say I can't get out and wash my car every weekend, but I wish I could.