Problem with APC...

[yalerd]

Re: Problem with APC...

2nd, this thread was only to get answers. Maybe someone has ran across this before? Maybe Megs has ran across this before? Maybe someone can give me some insight as to why this happened, and prevent it from happening again(maybe to you?).

And to add, I guess you did it unconscious, for us in the forum to learn about this event (sorry it happen to you Nick) but maybe from this incident we can all learn if we find the cause of it

[Renny Doyle]

Re: Problem with APC...

We had a seat like this in our shop last summer from a shop not far from us. They made contact with us to see if we could assist due to the fact we use steam. They too used an APC at 10:1 but after I opened the bottle, it was closer to 50/50 mix.

The stains on the seats we dealt with were not as badly stained as those in the photos you provided but pretty dang close.

We used a multi-step method to work at the stains.

1. We used a Max Power commercial grade carpet/upholstery cleaner with a raw steam head with water/steam injection engaged. We scrubbed bi-directional.

2. Extract

3. Again, we raw brushed the seat(s) with just plain steam, again by directional.

4. Extract

5. We used a fabric brightener and again steamed with raw brush.

6. We used a mild carpet/upholstery spotter with raw brush and then followed up again with a diaper wrap.

7. Final Extract

8. Diaper wrap over entire seat area with moderate steam and the seats looked new. I will look for the photos. It took us a couple hours but we were able to make it work.

For those not using steam, the wording above will be Greek. If you have a detailer in your area that knows his steam...call him! If you desire to chat...I am training today with a client but can call you at lunch time...[Use PM's please]

Also, don't feel bad, these seats found in Dodge, Ford and now GM are junk and prone to this! I am guessing the APC was simply to strong and too concentrated. Also...if all else fails, you can re-dye...not replace...its not all that expensive. As others have said...you are smart to turn to a group and look for input...hope this info helps and good luck.

[Nappers]

Re: Problem with APC...

Nick,

I have the one in the same Dodge Neon seats. Very peculiar seats I may add. I used the Meguiars hair remover brush and it looked like someone drug a wire brush across it, very wierd.

It looks like maybe some APC is still in the seat.....not sure. I used my old purple bottle of Meg's Carpet/Upholstery cleaner and did the same thing and used A LOT of water to extract it.

Have you tried to re-extract it, with a lot of water?

MAYBE that can be the problem. I did not have anything that looked like the dye got sucked out. I used my carpet spot cleaner with upholstery nozzle with tap water tank (and drains in the same tank, just other chamber) to extract it.

Hope it works out.

Aaron

[3Fitty]

Re: Problem with APC...

Nick,

I wasn't suggesting that you were going after anyone, I was just explaning your possible options.

When you asked if "this was your responsibility", I didn't think you were asking it rhetorically, so I answered the question, that's all.

[Nick Chapman]

Re: Problem with APC...

We had a seat like this in our shop last summer from a shop not far from us. They made contact with us to see if we could assist due to the fact we use steam. They too used an APC at 10:1 but after I opened the bottle, it was closer to 50/50 mix.

The stains on the seats we dealt with were not as badly stained as those in the photos you provided but pretty dang close.

We used a multi-step method to work at the stains.

1. We used a Max Power commercial grade carpet/upholstery cleaner with a raw steam head with water/steam injection engaged. We scrubbed bi-directional.

2. Extract

3. Again, we raw brushed the seat(s) with just plain steam, again by directional.

4. Extract

5. We used a fabric brightener and again steamed with raw brush.

6. We used a mild carpet/upholstery spotter with raw brush and then followed up again with a diaper wrap.

7. Final Extract

8. Diaper wrap over entire seat area with moderate steam and the seats looked new. I will look for the photos. It took us a couple hours but we were able to make it work.

For those not using steam, the wording above will be Greek. If you have a detailer in your area that knows his steam...call him! If you desire to chat...I am training today with a client but can call you at lunch time...call my office

Also, don't feel bad, these seats found in Dodge, Ford and now GM are junk and prone to this! I am guessing the APC was simply to strong and too concentrated. Also...if all else fails, you can re-dye...not replace...its not all that expensive. As others have said...you are smart to turn to a group and look for input...hope this info helps and good luck.

Renny,

Are you saying that the seats may not be ruined? You think this is something that can be fixed without dyeing or replacing the seats?

From what I can tell, it looks like the color has been removed from the fabric.

[Nick Chapman]

Re: Problem with APC...

Nick,

I wasn't suggesting that you were going after anyone, I was just explaning your possible options.

When you asked if "this was your responsibility", I didn't think you were asking it rhetorically, so I answered the question, that's all.

Oh, sorry. I guess what I meant was between me and the owner. Obviously this isn't the result of the product or tools used. If it was something we entered the car with, then wouldn't it be all over the entire interior and not just isolated to this one area? Wouldn't it be all over the carpets also?

The way I see it, something was wrong with the seats before we entered the vehicle. But since we were the last to touch it, we(actually me ) are the ones responsible. So I will take care of it and make it right. The main reason for this post is to get answers as to why it happened in the first place, and what I(or any of us) can do to prevent it from ever happening again.

Thanks for your input!!!!

Nick

[Tom MacDonald]

Re: Problem with APC...

Hi Nick,

That seats looks terrible. It looks like a product with bleach was used on it! The APC even if used at the wrong strenghth would only produce a chemical film on the material that a warm water extractor would be able to correct.

Question, was the entire rear seat treated with product, and if so, why would only the middle section be discolored?

I don't think that it was the APC that was used on this surface, this product is used extensivley by detailers and car dealers and I have never heard of a reaction of this type from the product.

Maybe take the car to an indepenedent detail shop for an evaluation of the problem.

Regards,

Tom Mac Donald
Meguiar's Inc
Quality Assurance Manager

[Nick Chapman]

Re: Problem with APC...

Question, was the entire rear seat treated with product, and if so, why would only the middle section be discolored?

Yes, the entire seat was treated the same. Along with the carpets and floor mats. This is the only area that had this effect. In fact, he told me that he filled the extractor water tank before he started this job, and didn't refill it through the job. So everything was the same throughout the entire job. Nothing changed. Same spray bottle was used, same water, everything.
I'm not sure why only this area had this reaction.

But, if you look at the pictures, it looks like something ran down the seats. Like they were saturated with some liquid, and it ran down. We don't use anything that would saturate the seats like this.

Thanks,
Nick

[Nick Chapman]

Re: Problem with APC...

I don't think that it was the APC that was used on this surface, this product is used extensivley by detailers and car dealers and I have never heard of a reaction of this type from the product.

I can assure you that APC was the only product used on these seats.
As I said before, he used it on the ENTIRE surface of the car(seats, carpets and floormats), and this is the only area that had this reaction.

When my guy left, everything was fine. The vehicles owner was pleased and paid him for the job. This "spot" appeared a couple of hours after he left.
If a bleach product was used, then it would have appeared imediately afterwards. Not 2 hours later.

Nick

[Nick Chapman]

Re: Problem with APC...

For those of you questioning what products was used on this seat, here is a list of products that I keep in the van. You tell me which product could of had this reaction...


APC Plus mixed 10:1
Super Degreaser mixed 10:1
Glass cleaner
Odor Eliminator
Leather conditioner
Super Soap
#40
Last Touch
Hyper Dressing mixed 3:1
All Season Dressing


Thats what he had to choose from when he reached in the van and grabbed a product. None of these products would have had this reaction to a cloth seat. I do not carry anything other than these products and some #80, some wax(NXT 2.0 and #66), and some foam pads and towels, brushes, etc...

There is nothing in the van that would have cause this.

Nick

[Tom MacDonald]

Re: Problem with APC...

Hi Nick,

My guess is that maybe this seat had a poor quality dye job done to that area of the seat in the past. If it was a product issue that caused it the entire seat would have suffered the same result.

This is a very unusual situation you have experienced.

~Tom

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Problem with APC...

But, if you look at the pictures, it looks like something ran down the seats. Like they were saturated with some liquid, and it ran down. We don't use anything that would saturate the seats like this.

Thanks,
Nick

We sent an e-mail out to a number Professional Sales Managers here at Meguiar's, most if not all of them have decades of experience working as Professional Detailers themselves.

One of our guys looked at these pictures and said exactly what you stated Nick, and that is it looks like the problem existed before you worked on the car. That is some other time something was poured down the seat and that's why the pattern looks the way it looks.

No one at Meguiar's that was sent the e-mail to this thread has ever seen APC stain upholstery. When a cleaner is sprayed onto a surface it doesn't have this kind of effect unless it's interacting with what was already present in the material and that's our best guess as to produced these results.






For everyone that is reading this thread now and into the future, always check for and note pre-existing damage or stains and then document and make the owner aware of the problem before taking on any job.

In this case it could be that the stain was not apparent to the human eye upon inspection until after the cleaner was applied and some time when by as Nick has stated.

At this point Renny has listed some possible solutions to correct the problem, that should be the starting point as you move forward.

[Nick Chapman]

Re: Problem with APC...

Thanks Mike.
I'm going to check into Renny's suggestion first, then possibly re-dyeing to correct this problem. I need to take another look at these seats, but it looks like all of the color is completely gone in that area. Re-dyeing may be my only choice

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Problem with APC...

Wonder if you could find the back of the seat or even both in a salvage yard?

Usually the rear seats don't get as much wear and tear, so you would just have to find the right color.

FWIW

[Kevin Brown]

Re: Problem with APC...

Well-
I have NEVER seen ANY cleaning-liquid do that before!
Sounds like several other people have had issues with that material.

Hard to tell from the pic:
I have to assume that the rest of the interior is CLEAN in the picture, or somewhat clean, and what I'm seeing is NOT a dirty surface compared to a clean surface.

• Did the material fall apart, is currently falling apart, or is it still in good shape?

• What comes up when you spray water on the seat and wipe it with a clean towel? Any bubbles coming out of that area when scrubbed?

Without knowing what was all over that seat (if, in fact, that's the area where the contamination occurred), and I had to guess...

The only thing I know of that could have DESTROYED a seat in that manner would be an extreme base pH condition, so perhaps vomit, or some detergent (such as laundry detergent), in a fully concentrated form.

Wouldn't be acid-based, I'd think... Not much to react with (unless extreme heat was part of the equation). It is Texas, though.

What happens when you clean another area of the interior, using only WATER?

Can you work a few different areas with highly diluted APC, then progressively concentrate it, to help determine if APC was actually the culprit?

I'd agree that there may be additional cleaner/detergent/contamination in the area. If you didn't spray product and flood the area (as you've stated), I would NOT take responsibility for the damaging of the seat.

I would, however, do as you are. That is- Follow up with the customer, rebuild the history of detailing of the car (Just purchased used car, previously detailed at another location, etc.), and go with your gut-feelings on this one.

If you gut-check and feel the wise thing to do remedy the situation so the customer is happy- DO IT. More than likely- Profits will return later in the form of referrals!
Kevin