A little testing/playing around!

[Daniel Kinder]

Just a wax spreader... LOL
Technique is everything! but you never hear the same 2 words together in the same sentence...I'm talking about the orbital buffer(the wax spreader) & technique. I guess without knowing the right technique to use with the orbital that's all you can do is just spead some wax around!

Here's the test with the orbital I've been itching to get done for the last 4 or 5 months or so and to at least give it a go, good or bad. Also to show my technique that took awhile to learn on my own back in the early 90's.

I told T-bone of my idea awhile back and I think he wanted to do the test more then me, from asking about every week or so.

The only thing I didn't care to much for was the 48 pics but it was the only way to capture everything we was doing ( AND THANKS SO MUCH T-Bone FOR HELPING ON THIS TEST YOU MADE IT INTERESTING AND FUN!!) and try to show everything I could think of that when I posted it up that someone might say what if or try this, I'm not perfect so there could be a question on what if or something I just didn't do or try.

Here's what I'm going to be working with. Didn't have any more 00 high tech wash for my sand paper lube so used some super soap instead. Also use a spray bottle for my wet sanding because I like having dry feet, just add several drops of soap in there along with the water and give it a good shake. And keep surface wet for your sand paper to glide across.

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Here's the sand paper I used, we did use more pressure then should have but was trying to get rid of all the low spots and etching from setting outside for several years.

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Here's what I was starting with, the picture looks good I know because I've run out of area's to test on so I had to wet sand over a area that was recently polished. Did pick this area because of the bird etching and it will help in the post with something to go by or focus on.

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Took a couple pics to show the clear coat being wet sanding off the surface of the hood and actaully the sanding scratches on the surface.

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After using a squeegee to check our area, we could have called it done just to prove that the wax spreader could have removed the 3000 grit sanding scratches but I was after a deep glossy reflective finish! So more wet sanding and more pressure.

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up-close, as you can see needs more.

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Here's T-Bone getting in on the fun

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Went over the bird poo! etching that we wet sanded alittle more to at least try to take out some what but it was there to stay.

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Here's what we'll be using for the cleaning step to remove the 3000grit sanding scratches ,the key in the cleaning step using the orbital...I mean wax spreader. You can use any brand foam bonnets for the wax spreader it's just that I found these at an outlet store and actually got every foam bonnet they had for $1.00 each plus 3-packs of terry bonnets for the same price and when I got them home looked again and noticed that they were 2 terry bonnets in each pack!

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Started off first with the most aggressive meguiars product(Ultimate Compound) that you can go to your local auto parts stores or waly-world and pick up.

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Also how much product I applied to the bonnet to start off with, more or less just to get the bonnet saturated with product.I will spin the bonnet on a microfiber towel to help remove any excess product that may be damp so as not to over saturate the foam bonnet before I will apply any more product to the bonnet, becuase you can and will get to much product on and cause the fibers in the foam to start to pull loose from each other in other words tear.LOL!!

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Getting started

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I may have alittle to much product on the bonnet but this is the first time using S.M.A.T (super micro abrasives technology) with a wax spreader and really didn't know how it would react or do so a learning for me, did pretty well no problems at all except don't try to work it in to much go over each area about 4 or 5 times and remove product. I also applied as much pressure as could be (remember this is a orbital and not much pressure can be applied) about 10 lbs if that can't be 100% but trying to get a ball park fiqure.

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Since I put up T-Bones pic It's only fair I guess.LOL Plus he said I look professional with the cord over my shoulder.

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After product spread

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With just one application of UC and the wax spreader it did impress me but you could still see the sanding scratches pretty easy under the light.

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Here's another angle.

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Reflection is great but I'm sure that if out in the sun light the scratches would show up like black on red.

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So applied A 2nd application of the UC.

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Standing back after the wipe down of the removal of the 2nd apllication and the outcome

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Scratches still showing up so now I decided to get out the M105 and a new 10'' foam bonnet to use more aggressive product and see how much it will take to remove the scratches for a clear glossy finish.

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Here's how much product I applied of the M105 to the new 10'' foam bonnet

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My boy wanted to help so here's 3 pics of him applying the 1st application of M105.

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After he's worked it in.

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And the removal of the 1st application M105

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Applied 1 more applications of M105 and worked in to go over each area 4 to 5 times before removal. Just showing a even coverage of test spot before removal.

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After removal and to show the reflection of the M105 bottle.

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Turned out better then I expected with the glossy reflection and clarity of the test spot that we wet sanded and removed the scratches from the 3000 grit sand paper with my wax spreader.

There were some scratches left in the area to the left of the bird etching against the tape line but the reason being that the edge of the foam bonnets was riding on top of the tape so didn't really get to work in to the finish but the point being is that all the 3000 grit sanding scratches were removed and we did apply more pressure then we normally have while wet sanding because of the years of laying out in the open and not being washed and cared for properly.

Also I did sand through an area right above the the bird poop etching to the right trying to remove some bad etching. Just wanted to let every one know that since this is a very fine sand paper you can still go through the clear, tried to capture the burn through but after about 6 to 9 tries I just couldn't get it.

Thought these several pictures of some reflection shots and some using the dual xenon to try to show every angle and that we in fact did remove the sanding scratches. You can also see just in front of the bottle and inbetween the tape and light reflection how bad some of the etching were.

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Here's a clarity shot of the over head light on my ceiling. Of course on the left is of the wet sand and on the right un-touched. Also picked this angle shot to show a good up close of the etching over the entire hood

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Now some pics with my xenon light.

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And with some of the tape removed from the test spot to show the difference.

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Thought that since there's so many pics I would bring back the before pic to help with the before & after improvement.

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And after the wet sanding and 2 applications of Ultimate Compound.

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The finish test after the 2 applications of M105

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I maybe have $40.00 or more just for this test to prove what I already know and to help any one out that can't afford to go out and give $150.00 for a PC and other products that is what's needed for being able to do a good job with their paints finish. So if I can remove 3000 grit sand paper scratches with this so called wax spreader you should be able to do a good job too!

So what do you think now?

I've finally done the thread that I've been wanting to do and should prove that it's just not a WAX SPREADER!!!

I hope every one really appreciates this thread because you can't believe everything you read that say's you can't do this or you can't do that! BLA! BLA! BLA!

You don't know what you can do until you try, so go get you a test hood, panels or what every and try it, don't beleive something unless you can prove it or know it for a fact that it's the truth.

[Murr1525]

Re: A little testing/playing around!

Yes, I think people have been finding the SMAT products to work better with them than the older products.

[Mary S]

Re: A little testing/playing around!

It doesn't completely surprise me with 3000 grit. Most compounds will claim to pull out 1200 to 1500 sanding marks, and even the finest finishing polishes claim to pull out 2500, well that is with a rotary. Using 3000 and adding to the fact you are using the orbital to apply it will make it effectively even higher, so it really should not take much to pull out 3000 sanding marks. That is great you could do it with the orbital!

[Mary S]

Re: A little testing/playing around!

I should add I think it is really great that you did this, to show first hand that it can be done! The total amount of cut (paint removal) depends on the compound, the pad, the machine (or the arm!), the pressure, the setting, the number of passes.

By the way, anybody wanting to play around with wet sanding on a test hood, the Harbor Freight polisher is on sale. http://www.harborfreight.com/7-inch-...der-92623.html.

Of course, the biggest expense in wet sanding is the paint gauge if you are doing it "for real."

[Michael Stoops]

Re: A little testing/playing around!

We have no doubt that this is possible on some paints. But we also know of some paint that is so darn hard that you would likely be kicking yourself for having sanded it now that you have no way of pulling out the sanding marks.

Funny as it may sound, a nicely refined 3000 grit sanding mark is probably easier to remove than heavy swirls anyway. The trick is if you first sand with a more aggressive paper and end up with a tracer or two that the 3000 grit can't remove. Those can be a challenge for a rotary sometimes, so an orbital would be no match for them.

While we applaud you for doing this test and documenting it the way you did (and again, under the right conditions we aren't terribly surprised it worked for you) we don't want a bunch of folks running out and sanding their paint thinking they can then fully correct everything with an orbital. There is bound to be a fairly high failure rate, certainly far, far higher than what any manufacturer would deem acceptable for a product they were taking to market.

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: A little testing/playing around!

Daniel, very interesting test. The results your son achieved with the 105 are outstanding. Glad you did this. I was wondering about the real power of the wax spreader. Seeing your results and Mike comments, people should realize these results are not expected every time.

Great write up and pics.

[Daniel Kinder]

Re: A little testing/playing around!

Yeah, I should have pointed that out about the hardness of different clears. And result will vary

I've run into a few clears and water mark etchings that have laughed at the orbital(wax spreader) but if the 3000 grit sand paper will pull them out I also believe the orbital can go a long way in improving ones paint or should I say some spots that needs attention with the right technique and product.

This was just a test and playing around to show that it does in fact can do more then just spread wax for ones who can't afford or don't want to shell out $150.00 plus dollars to try to improve their paint buying a DA just for a couple details a year.

Just helping others out because I've seen/read post before that some members asked questions about using the cheap $20.00 orbital because that's what they have to work with and really got led away from the orbital because it only is good for spreading wax and not paint correction.

I've always did test like these to help out others to be able and go out to there auto parts stores or wally world and get the meguiars products too get the job done or improve better then what they have at the moment.

Also I'm in the process right now of getting a black hood CC or SS hopefully both and will be having more fun.

[CieraSL]

Re: A little testing/playing around!

Rotary vs DA Polisher vs Traditional Orbital Buffer

The Traditional Orbital Buffer aka The Wax Spreader

[Mary S]

Re: A little testing/playing around!

I think one of the variables that you introduced that we don't usually associate with the orbital is the foam bonnet you used. I wonder if that helped add to the cut of the process.

I certainly do have a cheap orbital that my husband had bought for use on our boat (before we sold it). I can try it out sometime with 105 on an unbuffed section of my test hood and see just how much improvement you can get. Maybe a better test still would be with 151. I think one of the reasons they began using these devices for cars was because of the cleaner waxes that don't go on as easily, don't come off as easily as the pure waxes. So it probably will give you some cut, especially with a foam bonnet.

And they sell microfiber bonnets for these too, which would probably give more cut than you want. I think I'd be scared to use that for fear of marring/scratching.

[TimG]

Re: A little testing/playing around!

Indeed, a good read. Thanks for posting Dan.

[Daniel Kinder]

Re: A little testing/playing around!

I think one of the variables that you introduced that we don't usually associate with the orbital is the foam bonnet you used. I wonder if that helped add to the cut of the process. Absolutely!!!

I certainly do have a cheap orbital that my husband had bought for use on our boat (before we sold it). I can try it out sometime with 105 on an unbuffed section of my test hood and see just how much improvement you can get. Maybe a better test still would be with 151. I think one of the reasons they began using these devices for cars was because of the cleaner waxes that don't go on as easily, don't come off as easily as the pure waxes. So it probably will give you some cut, especially with a foam bonnet. Just give it a try mary, you'll see. I also used scratchX alot with fantastic results!

And they sell microfiber bonnets for these too, which would probably give more cut than you want. I think I'd be scared to use that for fear of marring/scratching.

Here mary, what I've said in ever post I've posted to about the orbital for the last couple years. Back in the early 90's that's all I had, and made do with it. You learn how to work with something if your enjoy it! and I'm just trying to help others and take alot of confusion out of it for them.
That the foam is the only way to go for the cleaning step! Then I would use the terry bonnet for applying polish or a cleaner/wax, and sometimes used a microfiber bonnet for the LSP. There was a couple times that I run into some hard clears and even a couple bad water mark etchings that of course the orbital would even make a dent in the procress but now I showed that with some 3000 grit sanding paper and the M105 (for DA) it can be done!

Also a couple things I did mention and cover in my thread.
''Here's what we'll be using for the cleaning step to remove the 3000grit sanding scratches ,the key in the cleaning step using the orbital...I mean wax spreader. You can use any brand foam bonnets for the wax spreader''


And then this one.
You don't know what you can do until you try, so go get you a test hood, panels or what every and try it, don't beleive something unless you can prove it or know it for a fact that it's the truth.

Also on the same hood a couple years back I even removed swirls with another orbital buffer using meguiars products that you could get from your auto parts stores but I don't know!

---

Ok here's a test I've been wanting to do for some time now to show what can be done with the orbital buffer the right technique and products.
This pic is after a wash with gold class car wash shampoo & conditioner.

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The left side is going to be clayed using meguiars smooth surface clay kit. Was going to do the right side the same way but without using the clay to show differences , but running out of time for this test today.(but will use the right side to use a more aggressive cleaner to show just how far the orbital can go to remove swirls if anyone wants me to do a write up on going further with this test?)
This is the fine clay I'm going to be using.

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And here's after claying the left side.

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And what the clay removed from the top surface of the paint.

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Thought I would use a product anyone could go down to their local autoparts store or walyworld and pick up to get the same results .Deep crystals 3 step system!

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And this is all of the product I'm putting on the foam bonnet.

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Over the years I've found out that if using a orbital buffer in order too let the machine do the work in the cleaning step to use a foam bonnet, but remember not to put to much product on the bonnet because you will load to much on and with to much product on the foam bonnet it will act as lubrication and not give the full potential of the product and the foam bonnet to work together.
This next pic is after applying the DP 1 and without removing to show just how little is on the surface after working in almost until the product is gone.

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I'm going to apply 3 coats to see what effect the orbital and the DC 1 has on the swirls in this clear coat paint, (that I heard the orbital is to weak to remove any swirls on a clear coat paint)LOL!
At this time it is 70 degree's and with a humidity of 52%, so to me it's perfect detailing weather!
And this pic is after the wipe off of the first application.

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After the second application.

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And the third application but going to try it with the flash on to help see what I was seeing.

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Didn't work all that good so I used my dual xenon light to help bring out the clarity of the paint.I knowed it wouldn't remove 100% of the swirls but just look at what my camera captured. Just look at this shot!

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When I was using the orbital I was applying about 10 to 12 lbs of pressure, just on the brink of stopping the pad from spinning.I over lapped each pass by 50% and used slow arm speed to let the foam bonnet do the work.
After removing the first application I noticed that I was getting some shine back to the surface.And after the second application i started to see some deeper,darker and richer paint coming out. The third application I was seeing the wood strips on the ceiling of my garage and the clarity in the paint with a deep rich color to it.
Next I'm going to apply some of the DP step 2 polish to try to bring out some more darker and richer color.
This is all the polish I'm putting on the terry cloth bonnet.

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Just going to apply 1 coat with a terry cloth bonnet with about 10 lbs pressure working in real good then just wiping right back off.
Here's after removing the polish.

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The last step is ofcourse to put on the protectant so I will also be using DC's step 3 carnauba wax. Here's all I'm applying to a new terry cloth bonnet, also just using the weight of the orbital to apply the wax.

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Here's after about 15 minutes to let the wax cure and then did the finger swipe test to make sure the product was ready to be wiped off.

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Now for the true test, to see if this technique will have had much of an effect on this clear coat paint.Here's the last 2 pics to show the best that I could show you what I used to do for years with the orbital.The first pic is with the xenon light and the second without.

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Thanks for the questions & wondering Mary I think you and any one else that gives this A TRY ON A TEST PANEL/HOOD? will see what I'm talking about.

The DA has more power and works better then the cheap orbital but with more time and the right technique you can get great results if that's all you have and it sure beats using your hand. Which who wants to do a whole car by hand with a cleaner.

I'd like to know how many people tried this and what you think! PM if you like but at least give it a try, every one has one laying around or can get one pretty easy. Remember get a foam bonnet for the cleaning step!

[cameraman]

Re: A little testing/playing around!

That's some wicked results you got with those old hunky junk things.

Guess never knew it could produce such awesome results. You said, with the right technique and process anything can be done and you just proved it.

stang krazy thanks for taking the time to show us beginners/amatuers this stuff. maybe one day i'll try this out.

[Mary S]

Re: A little testing/playing around!

One thing to keep in mind, as you will see at the bottom of this page, they do also make these random orbital buffers in the higher price range, presumably with more power, so every model may not behave exactly the same.

http://www.lanescarproducts.com/buffer.html

[sontakke]

Re: A little testing/playing around!

All my cars are at least 10 years old. They serve as the test panels :-) Seriously, with M105 (and now Ultimate Compound) you can get very good results even with wax spreader.

Really, once you understand the physics behind the paint polishing and correction *and* if your chemical and material is able to show the correction by hand, there is NO reason why mechanical method would not do the same but in shorter time and with less efforts. The mechanical means does not have to be $300 flex machine (although it certainly helps :-)

- Vikas