DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

[Top Gear]

Re: DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

Welcome to MOL, GrossmeisterB! Very recently, I upgraded from the thick foam pads and Ultimate and Gold Class products to the DAMF system, and I truly do have extremely hard black paint. I'm very pleased with DAMF. Here's the development thread: http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums...-for-PC-7436SP

Now, the videos are a guide, not necessarily a literal recipe for every kitchen. As you get comfortable with the setup, don't be afraid to get more aggressive if you're not seeing results, or less, if you're getting them more easily.

However, the linked shot you first posted shows a very decent cut across the middle based on your description of one "pass", so if that's right, your paint must not be very hard at all, very soft. I couldn't possibly get that much correction with a single pass/load using the Cutting/D302 combo! Also, if you think you're getting pad separation from one "pass", I just don't know how. The MF pads are pretty tough. If I understand you, the second shot you posted is not yours, but an example shot of pad separation?? Fear not.

So, unless I've missed something, I'd say your paint is way softer than mine to get that much cut using non-abrasive D302 polish, even given the Cutting disc, at such low speed. Did I miss something? Perhaps if you use D300 Cutting Compound on the Cutting disc, you might have all the power you'll ever need on that paint for deeper defects with little effort. Follow with D302 on either disc, then the Finishing/D301, of course.

To give you an idea of how much harder my paint is, using a Porter Cable I've had to go to full speed with heavy pressure using an Xtra Cut disc with D300, and I've STILL had to do many series of passes/loads to see depth of results you got in one pass of Cutting/D302. I've had to do as many as 8 sets/passes of product reload on some panels, just for cutting alone, and you got similar results with one pass of polish?? I wouldn't complain. Here's the hard paint combo I've settled on, generally, for a full correction (which I don't recommend for yours):

- MF Xtra Cut/D300, Speed 5-6/max, 4-8 passes/loads as needed
- MF Cutting/D302, Speed 4-5, slower passes as needed
- MF Finishing/D301, Speed 3-4, slow application
(~15-20 hours of work)

Based on the OP photo and your description, I'd say you won't need to work that hard by a long shot! Consequently, it looks like you need to be a lot more careful than I do.

I'll also say, be sure to adjust the speed and pressure so that the pad is oscillating and rotating as smoothly as possible without bouncing or vibrating wildly, and slow arm movement is best, very slow for polishing. You may be able to get away without any compounding, but I'd get some D300 just to make it easier and to get a good clean cut. You should be able to correct a small car like the Elise in 4 hours or less, by comparison.

[GrossmeisterB]

Re: DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

I first used D300, then D301. So the first shot I showed is after using D300 (on Microfiber cutting discs) AND D301 (on Microfiber finishing discs).
And yes, the 2nd shot is not from me, it's from a German forum where someone used a stronger machine at full speed and lot of pressure.
The Elise is small, but it takes quite some time, due to all the "edges" and roundings. There's barely any "flat" surfe to work on. Which makes it a little bit more difficult.
But I will try it again with more speed and more pressure.

[Top Gear]

Re: DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

Okay, then, if you will, can you start over with an accurate description of what you're using and doing? Your original post says "polish", which is not D300. How many passes/loads and other details did you do or follow to get the result in your photo? I ask because it's hard to give clear advice if we don't know all the details, which is why my advice was so different from the others

[GrossmeisterB]

Re: DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

Sorry for the confusion. On the german market there's just the D300 and D301. So for me the "D300" is the "polish". But I now found out, that there's another product in the US, called "polish".
Again, sorry for that confusion.
I used the D300 Microfiber correction compound with the DA Microfiber cutting discs (5,5" and 3"). Both on my Kestrel DAS6 set at speed 4-4,5 (~4500-4800 opm as per the manufacturer).
I used light pressure and a slow arm speed, working on areas at around 20x20 inches. I cleaned the pad after every two passes with a Colourlock brush, turning on the machine and rubbing the brush over the pad from inside to outside.
After doing the whole car like that, I wiped off the stuff that was left from the D300, took the D301 and the "DA Microfiber finishing discs" and lowered the speed to "3" on my Kestrel DAS6.
Again, I used very light pressure (just a tad more than just the machine weight) and a slow arm speed.

[Top Gear]

Re: DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

In that case, and based on the first picture you posted, I'd say you are getting the results anyone should reasonably expect. You'll have to do more than one pass/load with D300 to get to the level of defect removal you want. Depending on the hardness of the paint and imperfections, that could mean 2 pass/loads or 12. By a "pass/load", I mean putting product on the pad and working an area non-stop with at least 4 repetitions of the standard cross-pattern. Some people mean each of those repetitions is a "pass", but I've noticed much of that repetition is just spreading out the product evenly and working it fully, then the repetitions after the SMAT abrasives have broken down are doing very little by comparison.

Anyway, terminology is like the videos, more of a guide. I think you'll just have to be more patient to work areas until you're perfectly satisfied, checking with a light and the Sun, then do the quick D301 finishing step on that area/panel before moving on to another area or panel. I don't think you're doing this wrong, but you're just expecting it to be quicker and easier than it's actually going to be (a mistake I've made, too). What makes DA polishing safe for us is what makes it more work than we often think or hope it will be

Best of luck with it! Post some pictures to show us how it all goes

[GrossmeisterB]

Re: DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

Yeah, and I think I just din't use enough pressure/power to work out the defects.
I will try it again and use 2 or 3 passes per area to remove more from the defects.
Thanks again for all your help!
I hope I'll have enough time after work tomorrow to start it again

[The Guz]

Re: DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

Try shrinking your work area to 12x12. Try a little more pressure, bump the speed up a little more and slower arm movement. If you are still needing more correction then move to a more aggressive compound such as M100/M101/M105.

Do you have an air compressor? That's the best way to clean these pads. You could also clean the pad on the fly in addition to the brush if you don't have compressed air.

[davey g-force]

Re: DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

After doing the whole car like that, I wiped off the stuff that was left from the D300,

Also, this part doesn't sound right.
You should be wiping off D300 (or any polish or compound for that matter) after every section.

[GrossmeisterB]

Re: DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

Well, but what kind of difference does that make? From my thoughts it doesn't matter, if I take it off directly after polishing or at a later time?!

[The Guz]

Re: DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

It get's harder to remove the longer it's left on the paint. If you have to wipe hard to remove then you risk the chance of putting in scratches. It's recommended to remove a compound or polish after working it in. Gives you the chance to inspect your work as you go.

[davey g-force]

Re: DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

^^ Yep.

[Jarhead0754]

Times 3 to that. Usually u wipe off right away to check progress as well and determine if it needs another pass.

[GrossmeisterB]

Re: DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

OK, I tried different other combinations - MF Cutting Discs + Ultimate Compound, Lake Country orange pads + Ultimate compound etc., but still no defect removal at all...
I tried different pressures, different speeds (from very very slow to fast), different speed settings on the machine...but there's hardly any visible defect removal...what is wrong here? I really have no clue...

[jfelbab]

Re: DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

My experiences with the MF pad system...

I have gotten really good defect removal on many different paint types, including hard clears with D300 and microfibers. I will say that I found the MF pad is only effective when cleaned frequently. I blow it clean with an an air gun after each pass. For best defect removal, I have to keep the fibers working for me and when they get matted down and are full of spent product and paint they don't do much of anything. It takes but a couple minutes to blow the pad clean and air works much better than a brush, IMO.

Other factors that can affect poor performance is arm speed and pressure. Slow and firm works best for me. The 4800 OPM range has been just fine for everything I've had to work on.

You might also wish to try using M105/204 with the pads.

[Top Gear]

Re: DA Microfiber correction system - poor perfomance, no defect removal

GrossmeisterB, I know the frustration, as I have crazy hard paint. On some panels, I've done 12 pass/loads of compounding with D300, followed by 4 or more pass/loads of polishing, then wax, only to come back a day or two later to do 4 more compound loads using UC, UP, and so forth. For some areas, I've had to come back two more times and I've even sanded some of these areas and then pulled out those marks. The result, finally, was perfection.

Yes, this is Dual-Action work, which is never going to be all that aggressive to begin with (using high-quality Meguiar's products, anyway), and when dealing with hard paint, it can be a waste of time without getting aggressive. The typical risk-averse, even paranoid, advice for correcting soft paint results in nothing more than "powered claying" for hard paint (a great clay job, nice polishing oils, but often no real correction). There's almost no possible way to do any damage to such hard paint using the DAMF system correctly, so the only recourse is to rinse and repeat with more pass/loads, or...move to sanding, which will certainly work.

BTW, I've also tried UC on the Xtra Cut and Cutting discs and found it to be more aggressive than D300, but it still isn't aggressive enough, so next time I will be using M101 for those situations, to get right to it without so many pass/loads, and possibly no sanding. As such, the Xtra Cut Disc is essential for cutting such hard paint, but regardless of cleaning it often, it can create marring of its own. However, that DA Xtra Cut marring is easily fixed using the regular Cutting disc and D300. A benefit here is at least this tells you you're not just wasting time on the compounding.

So, if you are making some headway, DAMF is not your problem. Patience is On the other hand, if you are for sure not making headway at all, you might need to go to sanding or rotary tools. There is a limit to what a DA can do (and do safely), as I've reluctantly found out, with many hours spent on learning to show for it. Once you get to a level of corrective work, by whatever cutting method that is, for the rest of the process, you'll find DAMF to be amazing.