Random Orbital Diagrams

[Superior Shine]

Re: Random Orbital Diagrams

I bet Jason Rose knows.

[the_invisible]

Re: Random Orbital Diagrams

In astronomy, "clutch like action" acted upon a free-moving object by an external force such as pressure is naturally known as resistance?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Random Orbital Diagrams

I bet Jason Rose knows.

I'm open to anything as long as it's accurate.

[Tim Lingor]

Re: Random Orbital Diagrams

So with all your years of experience, do you have a word we can all agree on to use to describe the clutch like action?

That is a good question. If one takes apart the G110, there is no mechanism that emulates a clutch. However, because of the design, in essence, the polisher will stall out like many electric motors will. But in my opinion this is more from the lack of power combined with the design of the RO. However, this is what makes it so safe.

Just out of curiosity, where in your presentations do bring up about this "mechanism" and in what context? I assume as to why the machine is so safe for the masses? Would it not just be possible to say that due to the design of the RO that it is "bubba proof" and leave it at that?


And...I was close to your lawyer comment! LOLOL I knew I should have read your posts closer instead of just looking for spelling booboos!!

Tim

[seth1066]

Re: Random Orbital Diagrams

The use of the incorrect term "DA" seems to have come about from wanting to distinguish these more capable RO machines from the cheapo RO machines sold at the various *marts and the like.

I think this type of machine, labeled a DA sander, may have been developed before DA buffers. Perhaps the DA term was invented to distinguish this type from the vibration type of RO sanders. (BTW, notice the lack of a safety cover, unlike the G110/220; when one of your fingers gets in the way of the mechanism, that's definitely a second "action" and hurts like hell.)

[kaptain_zero]

Re: Random Orbital Diagrams

When excessive pressure is applied to the pad on an RO aka "DA" machine, the pad stops rotating as stiction overcomes the centripetal force. I don't think "stiction" is a real word but it has the same sort of meaning in an entirely different forum that I frequent.

The fact that the rotation stops is NOT exactly why the RO buffer stops cutting but rather that once the pad sticks enough to the paint so that it can't rotate, it also cannot orbit properly and most, if not all the energy from the orbital action of the buffer, is absorbed by the flexing of the foam in the pad (rather than being transfered to the pad/paint interface) and this starts to generate heat. It is at this point where the failure of the pad/loop material interface becomes a problem because the energy of the machine is now only creating heat in the foam/loop material interface instead of moving the surface of the foam pad in orbits across the paint surface. Softer polishing pads would be more prone to this than the firmer cutting pads.

Given the involved nature of the mechanics of a DA polisher with a flexible foam pad and the intricate effect of the polishing/lubricating medium, I for one will forgive Mike for using the term "clutch like action" when doing the relative short demonstrations he does in a night class on how to detail your car. It makes it easier for most beginners to understand that if you lean on a DA too hard, it simply stops cutting, rather than smoking it's way through your paint! It was using the "clutch" term as an actual mechanical device internal to the buffer that was causing confusion among some who then thought that perhaps this clutch was malfunctioning as the pad would spin freely when the machine was turned off.


And yes, the original PC was designed as a Production Random Orbit Sander... only later to be adapted to polishing/buffing using foam pads.

Regards

Christian aka

Kaptain "Man of many words, most of which may be incoherent" Zero

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Random Orbital Diagrams

when doing the relative short demonstrations he does in a night class on how to detail your car.

Sometimes during a Saturday they're rather long...

Mike Stoops and Mike Pennington now teach the classes here at the Meguiar's Corporate Headquarters, I'm the Mike that now teaches them in Stuart, Florida.

It makes it easier for most beginners to understand

That's usually the goal, there's no need to get as AR as many of these discussion forums trend towards.

And yes, the original PC was designed as a Production Random Orbit Sander... only later to be adapted to polishing/buffing using foam pads.

For posterity, because so many people have no idea who introduced the PC to the detailing enthusiasts market, I posted a little blurb about that here,

Surprised to see a Meguiar's G100 at my work


Since there isn't an actual name for the clutch-like-mechanism then for the foreseeable future or until someone comes up with a name to accurately describe the mechanism, moving forward I'll simply refer to the mechanism as a clutch-like-mechanism as I foresee teaching a lot more people how to use this tool as well as others tools into the future.

[ZoranC]

Re: Random Orbital Diagrams

Interesting discussion on more than one level. As I have nothing to contribute toward original topic I will try to contibute a little bit toward what turned out to be resulting topic.

When it comes to using word "mechanism" to describe _manner_ in which something works it is my opinion that should not be done, period.

Why I feel that way?

Because when people hear that word they interpret it as there is an _actual_ tangible mechanism in there when there isn't one. If I was to walk out of some class just to find out later I was not given correct information just because instructor decided "newbs" are for whatever reason unable to wrap their heads around the truth, or wrap it quick enough (what is the criteria?), I would not only feel very disappointed (because I go to classes to get _accurate_ information, any class that hands out inaccurate information, especially intentionally, even if only one, loses any respect and value in my eyes, all of the sudden everything in it comes under the question mark), but also very insulted (because somebody, without even knowing me, is on my behalf deciding I am not intelligent enough to understand something).

We on these forums say we are priding ourselves in accuracy of information we give, in paying big attention to exactness of what we are saying. Then we either practice what we preach and do exactly that or face that we really didn't. And if we don't practice exactness then of what value forums and classes will be to "news", what they would be offering to them that would be their motivation to join for?

Losing that would mean _teach_ part of the "teach one" is gone.

[al_h]

Re: Random Orbital Diagrams

Interesting discussion on more than one level. As I have nothing to contribute toward original topic I will try to contibute a little bit toward what turned out to be resulting topic.

When it comes to using word "mechanism" to describe _manner_ in which something works it is my opinion that should not be done, period.

Why I feel that way?

Because when people hear that word they interpret it as there is an _actual_ tangible mechanism in there when there isn't one. If I was to walk out of some class just to find out later I was not given correct information just because instructor decided "newbs" are for whatever reason unable to wrap their heads around the truth, or wrap it quick enough (what is the criteria?), I would not only feel very disappointed (because I go to classes to get _accurate_ information, any class that hands out inaccurate information, especially intentionally, even if only one, loses any respect and value in my eyes, all of the sudden everything in it comes under the question mark), but also very insulted (because somebody, without even knowing me, is on my behalf deciding I am not intelligent enough to understand something).

We on these forums say we are priding ourselves in accuracy of information we give, in paying big attention to exactness of what we are saying. Then we either practice what we preach and do exactly that or face that we really didn't. And if we don't practice exactness then of what value forums and classes will be to "news", what they would be offering to them that would be their motivation to join for?

Losing that would mean _teach_ part of the "teach one" is gone.

Fair Enough.

But until this thread, many people never realized that their DA's are in fact clutchless!

I remember Mike Pennington actually telling his advanced class that there's a clutch in the G100. He wasn't lying of course. He just didn't know the mechanics of the machine that well.

[ZoranC]

Re: Random Orbital Diagrams

But until this thread, many people never realized that their DA's are in fact clutchless!

That is exactly why one should not use the description that makes people believe there is one.

[Jason Rose]

Re: Random Orbital Diagrams

No question, Dynabrade is a great brand. Good tools. And this one is a good tool. I'm saying it may not be the best for defect removal.

Couplers and fittings used with this tool have been variable. I travel frequently and I test tools/products all over the world. So I'm sure there has been no consistency in couplers used. But here's what I'm going to do...
- I believe our training center uses those. I will try the tool there.
- I know the chief engineer at Dynabrade, I will discuss it with him and get his opinion on the matter.

If I have a new experience with the tool, I will get back to you. Thanks for the question.

I checked with Dynabrade, the couplers wont help power through the pad rotation on that tool. It will still bog down.

[SHYNEMAN123]

Re: Random Orbital Diagrams

I checked with Dynabrade, the couplers wont help power through the pad rotation on that tool. It will still bog down.

Thanks Jason

I think I am still going to pick one up for doing body work.

[Jossy92]

Re: Random Orbital Diagrams

In astronomy, "clutch like action" acted upon a free-moving object by an external force such as pressure is naturally known as resistance?

In the past "clutch" made me feel safe buying a PC. Now that I know about the "freely rotating shaft" I have more confidence.

Personally I don't mind me (or rather the pressure I exert) being the clutch like mechanism. It's my pressure that creates the resistance against on the pad. If the pressure acts as a clutch that just gives me more confidence.

Anyway, a clutch like mechanism is important to dummies like me. So is knowing about the freely rotating shaft which explains why my clutch like pressure keeps me from burning my paint.

Maybe Megs will come up with an attachment with a big plate and a foot petal instead of my Fat *** to control the speed of the pad.

Very grateful for amount of experience which you all share on Megs.