G110 or Flex

[Kevin Brown]

Re: G110 or Flex

...I have both the 3401 Dual Action Random Orbit Polisher and the 3403 Lightweight Rotary. I also have a PC 7424 and a PC 7428 rotary and two Dynabrade attachments and Griots Random Orbital polisher.

Ahhh, yes, but do you have the Makita BO6040 or the Festool Rotex RO150 FEQ or the Bosch 1250DEVS ?!?!? HMMMM???

You are probably the kind of guy that owns all the cool stuff...

I maybe doing this backwards as things have changed since the 3401 came into play with 105. Previously I was using a rotary to correct with, but the dust, splatter and taping I wasn't thrilled with and then would follow that with the PC 7424 to finish with. These days I use 3401 to correct with and finish with the 3403 rotary with 205 and either a finishing or polishing pad and it's been working great.

As for the Dynabrades, they do work great, but they also add a lot of weight to the rotary. If you are polishing flat surfaces it's great, but go to the side panels and it's going to get heavy. I brought Dynabrades to the Midwest get together along with both Flex machines and it seemed that the Flex 3403 rotary was a real hit.

Great to have opinions from a guy that owns all the machines being discussed.

[MarkH]

Re: G110 or Flex

Or you can get a Milwaukee rotary (which is also red), and a Milwaukee Admirals hockey jersey!

I found this kit for you:

If that skeleton pirate had robot arms and murmured BRAAAaINS I would wear it simply out of pure awesomeness. I would even consider paying over $600 for such awesomeness.

But seriously it's great to see you posting and to read some of your insights Kevin. I am sorry I don't have anything meaningful to contribute to this discussion, I am but a babe in the woods. I have a Flex, M105 and M205 and I polish happily in ignorant bliss of all the other machines out there. Reading what you guys write here really shows your passion and knowledge and I think it's great you are sharing with the rest of us. You are helping countless detailers polish better, faster, and with the knowledge they are truly getting it right.

Keep it up gentlemen!

[Tom Weed]

Re: G110 or Flex

Ahhh, yes, but do you have the Makita BO6040 or the Festool Rotex RO150 FEQ or the Bosch 1250DEVS ?!?!? HMMMM???

You are probably the kind of guy that owns all the cool stuff...



Great to have opinions from a guy that owns all the machines being discussed.

I got a good laugh out of that!

No, I don't have the above mentioned... I had to cut back on the toys, figured I would use these until they needed replaced. I guess everything has it's place and there is no real right and wrong, just some better in certain applications...

[c5rick]

Re: G110 or Flex

OK, this was like I was back in school, DA 101. This has been some great reading. Now that I've decided against the Flex, would the choice now be M110 over the 7424XP? I want to thank all for taking the time and offering input on my question

[ClearlyCoated]

Re: G110 or Flex

OK, this was like I was back in school, DA 101. This has been some great reading. Now that I've decided against the Flex, would the choice now be M110 over the 7424XP? I want to thank all for taking the time and offering input on my question

An M110 would be great, but the model is G110. But if Megs ever brought out the M110 (A G110 with a reservoir to inject M105/205 directly to the pad!?!) I'll be the first in line to buy one!

The 7424XP has the edge since the warranty is 3x longer than the G110, and it has a little more power. But the power is negligible unless you are very experienced and know all the nuances of utilizing that little boost in power. Other than that, members like Kevin Brown have demonstrated how the G110 narrows the gap on even rotary buffers if the correct method is utilized.

[john m.]

Re: G110 or Flex

I am going to be getting the PC 7424XP, talking to guys ive heard good things and am interested to try it for myself. I have been debating the flex issue also but with price and not being able to interchage backing plate and pad size I had to choose the PC. Hopefully I will retrieve it soon and can post up some reviews

[c5rick]

Re: G110 or Flex

An M110 would be great, but the model is G110. But if Megs ever brought out the M110 (A G110 with a reservoir to inject M105/205 directly to the pad!?!) I'll be the first in line to buy one!

Whether it be a G or M it's going to be a 110 ordered Tuesday !! Again Thanks All and now to find more about this infamous "KB Method"

[cardriver]

Re: G110 or Flex

I have a G110. If you're working on Hondas and other cheap, soft paint, it's acceptable.

For you, go for the Flex. You'll be easily bummed out by the lack of power the G110 offers. After 105 & 205, I achieved 0% correction on a Maserati I did on Fathers Day with my G110. The 7'' SB 2.0 Yellows I used had something to do with it, I'm sure, but go for the Flex.

The extra $150 for it will be well-worth your time and efforts in the long run.

[3Fitty]

Re: G110 or Flex

I have a G110. If you're working on Hondas and other cheap, soft paint, it's acceptable.

For you, go for the Flex. You'll be easily bummed out by the lack of power the G110 offers. After 105 & 205, I achieved 0% correction on a Maserati I did on Fathers Day with my G110. The 7'' SB 2.0 Yellows I used had something to do with it, I'm sure, but go for the Flex.

The extra $150 for it will be well-worth your time and efforts in the long run.

A lot of pros are finding that by trying different pad combo's with the G110 they are able to achieve outstanting correction results on most paint. I think the 7" pads might have been one possible issue because I know I did an Audi recently with my G110 and although I didn't get 100% correction, I did get about 90%.

[Bounty]

Re: G110 or Flex

This is good to know...
The machine I used last week did not have an added washer. I know it didn't because I took it apart!

And that can definitely lead to some of the side-loading issues as well as premature backing plate wear. The backing plate tends to flex just a tiny bit and can come into contact under heavy side-loaded pressure. The issue is that since the machine won't "bog down" or engage a safety clutch, people tend to feel they can apply ridiculous amounts of pressure in all situations. The second issue being the forced rotation can tend to make it a bit squirrely and unpredictable in novice's hands so they want to really push down under side-load or off-angle conditions to insure it doesn't get away from them. The reversed rotation from standard rotaries and ROB's also seems to cause this inexplicable "death grip" syndrome and general uncomfortability for users with many years of machine polishing experience. Heavy pressures, off-angle pressure, and "fighting" the machine or "pinning" it to the paint surface to prevent unpredictable movements will quickly lead you to damage the machine, the paint surface, or both.

Ok, so now we know the problems. How do we solve them? First up is dump the bail handle that ships with the unit. This forces you to remove the direct pressure from above the unit head in a sort of "squashing" motion so typical to Flex newbies and makes you utilize a side handle. The Soft-Vib Side Handle from Flex is a wonderful part and greatly reduces the transmitted vibration. The side handle now creates a triangle with the pad at the apex and each leg consisting of one of your arms (one on handle...other holding machine). Utilizing this grip and polishing motion allows you to apply smooth consistent pressure across even strokes thereby eliminating much of the backing plate pressure issues through technique change.

But, and Kevin you know this well, there will be spots that you absolutely have to apply some off-angle pressure. To insure these moments do not cause undue damage to your backing plate, insert an extra washer between the backing plate receiving area and the machine housing/bolt. This allows that tiny fraction of extra clearance not found in the earlier models and allows that minute flexing of the backing plate to occur without rubbing against the machine housing. To my understanding, the newer models come with a thicker heavy-duty washer, lubricated felt ring, and better quality control since it's debut two years ago. I bought mine a few months ago but lubricated the felt ring and added the washer as cheap insurance...

If not, you must be referring to adding another washer between the bolt and backing plate (which my VERY recent Internet search suggests on this thread):

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...ooooooooo.html

Good detective work...that is exactly what I was referring to. To be honest since so few people other than Zoran and myself ever really get into discussions of the Flex vs The World variety anymore there's a lot of disinformation and general lack of knowledge of techniques, tips, tricks, and bug fixes for this great unit. That's to be understood when you compare sales numbers and units in use. Just glad to see some others like yourself taking an objective look at both sides...

If you are referring to this, then it suggests that the factory washer is too thin and bends, or the bolt is a little long?
It seems that it would be better to simply increase the distance between the backing plate and housing...

Can't stand up for my boys across the pond in Dusseldorf on this one. It's totally the Achilles' Heel for this machine. Newer models addressed the issues but I can't imagine US suppliers have cleared their shelves so there's plenty of backing plate meltdowns waiting to happen for the uninitiated. Have the one you borrowed lubricated and modified and give it a shot.

Hope this helps....

[Fischer]

Re: G110 or Flex

Not to thread jack but on the topic of the FLEX, does anyone else have the problem where the FLEX gets reallly hot after a while?

[Kevin Brown]

Re: G110 or Flex

To insure these moments do not cause undue damage to your backing plate, insert an extra washer between the backing plate receiving area and the machine housing/bolt. This allows that tiny fraction of extra clearance not found in the earlier models and allows that minute flexing of the backing plate to occur without rubbing against the machine housing...

Thanks for the advice.
I want to be clear on the washer placement because I am not understanding how extra clearance is gained unless the washer is placed between the machine and backing plate (such as the yellow area in the picture):



I understand that if the inset portion of the backing plate is too thin or flimsy, adding a strong washer will help to eliminate the occurrence.

For those that do not know, this is the bolt and plate we are referring to:
(I borrowed the pic from here: http://paintcarendetailing.com/review/flex/)

To be honest since so few people other than Zoran and myself ever really get into discussions of the Flex vs The World variety anymore there's a lot of disinformation and general lack of knowledge of techniques, tips, tricks, and bug fixes for this great unit.

One thing about Zoran... he loves a good discussion or debate, and he generally researches things prior to stating his case.
Zoran is really in to figuring out how things work, and an all around great guy.

[Bounty]

Re: G110 or Flex

Thanks for the advice.
I want to be clear on the washer placement because I am not understanding how extra clearance is gained unless the washer is placed between the machine and backing plate (such as the yellow area in the picture):

Kevin thanks for clearing up that post as upon re-reading it I see how someone could be confused as I split my answer up but didn't completely reference your pics as an example. The area shown above is what will provide "distance" from the housing. It is important to note that you want the thinnest possible washer here. The teeth on the gears are vertically oriented and if you space it too much you'll loose grip, cause potential damage to the teeth either on the machine or molded into the backing plate, or possibly loose sealing characteristics. Small and thin is the name of the game. This step is purely optional. Some guys have had success with it and others don't like the potential risk involved. Most guys have resolved any issues by simply adding the thicker washer to the inset portion on the "face" or attachment side of the backing plate and utilizing the Soft-Vib handle and "apex pressure" technique.

Knew I should of not been lazy and just done this to begin with...

Here's the Flex disassembled...



Here's the rear view or backside of the backing plate...



Here's the clearance acheived after insert of the thin washer...



Here's the inset portion washer and a side shot to show the relative thickness...





Here's the relative static clearance after buttoning everything down...



Here's a few shots of the clearance with me squeezing down with maximum hand presure on the outermost edge of the backing plate simulating various forms of off-angle pressure...





And for those that were curious here's the felt ring that needs to be lubricated...




As previously stated most guys get by with lubricating the felt ring and adding the beefed up washer to the inset portion of the backing plate face. Others have gone as far as adding the "interior" washer for that fractional amount of added clearance. I'd recommend the first two and then some test runs prior to moving up to the third modification. To be honest, as a percentage of total reporting users the Flex backing plate issues have been largely corrected from the manufacturer in newer models. I don't have an early version (like the one I cut my teeth on) to do a side-by-side demo but the fact that current users aren't reporting any issues (myself included) is highly encouraging. This is heightened by the fact that most users aren't typical hobbyists (due to the larger price of entry) but that the end user grouping gravitates towards pro's or higher volume detailers.

Most forum and internet searches reveal these pages-long threads from late 2007 to mid-2008. The service record over the last year has been excellent and during the early days Flex was shipping out replacement backing plates under warranty to affected owners as it was a known issue.

One thing about Zoran... he loves a good discussion or debate, and he generally researches things prior to stating his case.
Zoran is really in to figuring out how things work, and an all around great guy.

Zoran is indeed the man and has taught me quite a bit in regards to the Flex, its operation, and the needed savvy to perform outstanding correction with it...

[MarkH]

Re: G110 or Flex

I'm sharing the same confusion Kevin is. Hold your Flex with the velcro on the backing plate facing up. I believe this is where they suggest adding a "beefier" washer to the inset portion of the backing plate seen in Bounty's pic here:

It looks like all I would be doing is adding space between the nut and the backing plate along with the raised portion of the drive mechanism, while doing nothing to create space between the backing plate and the drive mechanism. It's true the nut won't seat itself all the way into the threaded shaft with the beefier washer in place, but the backing plate is already sitting "flush" with the drive mechanism. I'm just failing to see how adding a beefier washer here will accomplish anything. I'm not bashing your post at all Bounty, just looking for clarification on this issue that hasn't made sense to me since the first time I'd heard about it.

[Tom Weed]

Re: G110 or Flex

Not to thread jack but on the topic of the FLEX, does anyone else have the problem where the FLEX gets reallly hot after a while?

Yes, very hot, I think it's just the nature of the beast with this machine. I have heard to trying a bigger gauge extension cord, such as a 12 AWG which I did, but the thing still gets as hot.