Flex VRG-3401 - Initial Impressions

[ceyko]

Re: Flex VRG-3401 - Initial Impressions

It definitely is and I agree with you there. If $120 either makes you or breaks you then detailing in general is not the best of hobbies.


And definitely if the things you mentioned above (color scheme, free bag, etc) are the most important than it sure was. If you could have done the same or better results in 4 or 5 hours on that car multiplied by your four cars...what price is 20+ hours of your labor worth? Even at minimum wage that's over $140 or more than the difference between the machines. And you admit there are defects you were unable to remove with your machine. How much is it worth to get those type of defects out on all four of your cars?

I'm fairly certain that neither mind will be changed at this point. I'm not saying mine won't be changed after a few more rounds with the G110, doubt it though.

I don't think 120 dollars is a drop in the bucket for this little hobby (as opposed to other hobbies we all have). The pads last a long time, or so I'm told. The product seems to last a long while (m105/205 is the polish I'm using NXT 2.0...). The other stuff seems a little quick to go whether it be tire dressing, wheel cleaner, interior stuff. Still, all in all it's not that expensive.

My personal time is NOT money. I deal with that banter all week and other times, I enjoy taking my time on the weekends whether it's detailing cars, painting the house, mowing or whatever fun project I find or otherwise have dictated to me by the wife. That's the only counter argument I have against the time thing, I don't necessarily WANT to rush it. Especially since I only plan to do full detail jobs on the dailies once a year and the two garage cars twice a year (besides normal upkeep).

You got a chuckle out of me with the free bag and color scheme comment , but in short the lower price seems to make it that I can do detailing for a year or two with the left over money. Maybe longer and for what *I* want to do the G110 or the PC would accomplish that task, just not as quickly. Since I'm not in a big hurry during my time off, that's sufficient.

At the end of the day, you wanted the Flex for your reasons and are happy with it. I'm plenty happy with the results of the G110 for my own reasons and still feel it is the best bang for the buck for my purpose.

I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone should settle for the lesser G110 if they want the advantages of the Flex.

I do not think there is any knowledge to be gained here, since most people will know the differences. They will make their choices off personal preferences as we did.

[Bounty]

Re: Flex VRG-3401 - Initial Impressions

I'm fairly certain that neither mind will be changed at this point. I'm not saying mine won't be changed after a few more rounds with the G110, doubt it though.

I don't think 120 dollars is a drop in the bucket for this little hobby (as opposed to other hobbies we all have). The pads last a long time, or so I'm told. The product seems to last a long while (m105/205 is the polish I'm using NXT 2.0...). The other stuff seems a little quick to go whether it be tire dressing, wheel cleaner, interior stuff. Still, all in all it's not that expensive.

My personal time is NOT money. I deal with that banter all week and other times, I enjoy taking my time on the weekends whether it's detailing cars, painting the house, mowing or whatever fun project I find or otherwise have dictated to me by the wife. That's the only counter argument I have against the time thing, I don't necessarily WANT to rush it. Especially since I only plan to do full detail jobs on the dailies once a year and the two garage cars twice a year (besides normal upkeep).

And there I would have to agree with you...ignorance is bliss. If you have no idea what you're missing with the Flex and what it can acheive, then you would see $120 as a lot of added expense. But if you used them side-by-side you'd see it as a nominal expense. But why open that can of worms? You're happy with your results. You're happy with your time expenditure. You're happy with the financial committment. I say stay happy...

You got a chuckle out of me with the free bag and color scheme comment

I aim to please!

But in short the lower price seems to make it that I can do detailing for a year or two with the left over money. Maybe longer and for what *I* want to do the G110 or the PC would accomplish that task, just not as quickly. Since I'm not in a big hurry during my time off, that's sufficient.

At the end of the day, you wanted the Flex for your reasons and are happy with it. I'm plenty happy with the results of the G110 for my own reasons and still feel it is the best bang for the buck for my purpose.

I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone should settle for the lesser G110 if they want the advantages of the Flex.

Absolutely. I can appreciate someone actually wanting to spend more time detailing as an escape or release or whatever. I myself do not always go for speed and efficiency. If I did I'd use only liquid waxes versus my preference for paste. But if the G110 serves as both detailing machine and therapeutic tool then there's no price you can put on that...I say good for you!!

[MarkH]

Re: Flex VRG-3401 - Initial Impressions

Definitely a nice deal...I paid $309 for:

1. Flex 3401 Dual Action Polisher
2. Six (6) LC CCS pads (4 more than your G110 kit)
3. Flex carrying bag
4. Some microfiber towels
5. Free Meguiar's duffel

I don't mean to derail the topic but where did you find this package? Every place I have looked the flex alone is $299.00 and any package containing the flex 6 pads + extras runs close to $400. If you don't feel comfortable posting here feel free to send me a pm!

Never mind! Found it!

[sriquixotic]

Re: Flex VRG-3401 - Initial Impressions

I'm about to order the flex xc kit from ADS, why did you choose the CCC pads over the flex foam pads? The CCS is an additional $10 and shipping is about $17, did you get a special discount for $320 or you excluded shipping in your post? I'm stuck on which pads to order, I have no experience with either, any suggestions? Thanks!

[Bounty]

Re: Flex VRG-3401 - Initial Impressions

I'm about to order the flex xc kit from ADS, why did you choose the CCC pads over the flex foam pads? The CCS is an additional $10 and shipping is about $17, did you get a special discount for $320 or you excluded shipping in your post? I'm stuck on which pads to order, I have no experience with either, any suggestions? Thanks!

Yup, I excluded shipping because shipping costs are the same with either polisher so I didn't see it as a point of reference. Sorry about that. Also, if you're ordering, be sure to ask Rick at ADS to order you the side handle!! Huge improvement over the stock bail handle...

As for the CCS pads, I really like the ADS spec'd Lake Country HP pads. All CCS pads are not created equal. The pads spec'd by ADS include a back-cut and raised (1/8") backing that makes it easier to center and gives you some cushion and separation from the surface for the backing plate when getting into tighter areas. They possess a beveled edge which allows you to smoothly transition over curved body panels and body creases. The CCS (Closed Cell Pockets) hold product and allow you to "release" more product while polishing by pressing down on the face of the pad...which is excellent for the new SMAT products like M105, M205, UC, D151, et al. They also reduce the friction area because less surface coverage is present meaning no pad skip (occassionally happens on a Flex with flat pad) and no excessive heat build up.

You get 6 pads in the kit. I've found that three (3) Orange Light Cutting and (3) Green Heavy Polishing with M105/M205 handle everything for me and finish down LSP ready. If you want to add to that you might want a finishing pad or two for very finicky paints but really only if you're doing this professionally versus just one or two cars.

Message me if you have any specific questions...

[Dunbar42]

Re: Flex VRG-3401 - Initial Impressions

I know a lot of pros over on autopia who are putting down their rotaries and picking up their PC's with the advent of M105 and the Kevin Brown Method. I know in the past with diminishing abrasive polishes the flex was the minimum required to get good correction in a reasonable amount of time. But I think the added power of the Flex is no longer required with M105/205 + KBM. You can get a G110 (or UDM/PC) package similar to yours for around $190 shipped ($140 for the polisher plus $50 for the pads.)

Out of curiousity does the speed restriction on the G110 apply to other pads? I was advised not to go over 5.5" pads to get decent correction with the the PC/UDM/G110 so I went with Excel 5.5" pads.

[Bounty]

Re: Flex VRG-3401 - Initial Impressions

I know a lot of pros over on autopia who are putting down their rotaries and picking up their PC's with the advent of M105 and the Kevin Brown Method.

Don't believe the internet hype. No true professional is going to put down a rotary for an orbital polisher...whether they use the Kevin Brown Method or not. Speaking as someone with experience having used my PC7424 both with and without the KBM technique, utilizing the KBM allows for another 10% to 15% defect correction ability. The KBM was designed to give you that little extra defect-removal power and to find a proven method of utilizing the new SMAT technology products. It in no way was ever designed to replace a dual-action polisher or rotary. Besides nothing...not an orbital or a Flex...will ever finish out with the amount of gloss a rotary will (maybe close with a Flex).

I know in the past with diminishing abrasive polishes the flex was the minimum required to get good correction in a reasonable amount of time. But I think the added power of the Flex is no longer required with M105/205 + KBM.

Absolutely incorrect...the difference in time and effort remains the same as M105, M205, and even the KBM can all be used on a Flex meaning the difference in defect-removal power and working time remains constant. And a lot depends on what you're working on. If you're trying to get out light to medium swirls on soft Honda paint an orbital with the KBM is fine. Trying to get out 1500 grit sanding marks on hard-as-nails Mercedes CeramiClear and the paint will laugh at your orbital. Even heavy swirling can be a chore on medium to hard clearcoats such as Corvette, Audi etc as many posts on this forum have indicated. The simple fact is any defect an orbital can take out a Flex can take out quicker, faster, and usually with a less aggressive product/pad combo as it is almost twice as powerful and includes forced rotation. You also can acheive these results with a 6.5" or 7" pad covering much more surface area.

You can get a G110 (or UDM/PC) package similar to yours for around $190 shipped ($140 for the polisher plus $50 for the pads.)

There is a comparable price difference of about $100 to $150 when purchasing a kit for a Flex 3401 and an orbital like a PC7424 or G110. It remains pretty much constant at that figure. For $100 there is absolutely no reason not to get a better machine if you're serious about your work.

Out of curiousity does the speed restriction on the G110 apply to other pads? I was advised not to go over 5.5" pads to get decent correction with the the PC/UDM/G110 so I went with Excel 5.5" pads.

The speed restriction applies to Meguiar's pads. I have used LC CCS pads on the Flex at over 9,000+ opm's and 450+ rpm's without issue. To be honest I have seen people use the Meg's pads on speed 6. The point to remember is that speed 6 should be used only when you need it. Speed 5 will provide the best longevity for your pad. But that doesn't mean speed 6 is the anti-Christ or anything. It can and should be used when necessary...

[Jason Rose]

Re: Flex VRG-3401 - Initial Impressions

you're dealing with a more serious machine than the PC and the longer throw (8mm for the Flex) gives you a smoother vibration feel which translates to longer working times with less fatigue.

The Meguiar's G110 and the PC have a 5/16th orbit size. That's the same as 8mm when you do the metric conversion. So, all three tools your are using the same stroke size.

As for vibration, at the high speed settings on both tools...the Flex vibrates much more than the G110 (going to smaller size pads on the Flex does minimize this.) Independent vibration test results are not available yet, but let your own hands do the checking for you and decide for yourself.

In the end, one needs to pick the tool that works best for them. A lot of personal preferences go into the decision of tool choice.

[Eddie6th]

Re: Flex VRG-3401 - Initial Impressions

Nice write up on the machinery.great for anyone deciding which model suits their needs.

[Dunbar42]

Re: Flex VRG-3401 - Initial Impressions

Don't believe the internet hype. No true professional is going to put down a rotary for an orbital polisher...whether they use the Kevin Brown Method or not.

Bounty, you seem to be pretty passionate in your views and I'm sure your are more experienced than I am. But here is a thread on Autopia with some pros who would disagree with your position:

Works better on a PC then rotary. (Never thought I would say that.)

I can get a full correction QUICKER with the PC and the old M105...than I can with a rotary

I agree about using KBPCM is faster for me then a rotary, even when using the new M105.

ever since getting 105 I have been using it with the pc and orange pad.

I have found my rotaries (all four of them) sitting on the bench in favor of my PC and flex.

Absolutely incorrect...the difference in time and effort remains the same as M105, M205, and even the KBM can all be used on a Flex meaning the difference in defect-removal power and working time remains constant. And a lot depends on what you're working on. If you're trying to get out light to medium swirls on soft Honda paint an orbital with the KBM is fine. Trying to get out 1500 grit sanding marks on hard-as-nails Mercedes CeramiClear and the paint will laugh at your orbital. Even heavy swirling can be a chore on medium to hard clearcoats such as Corvette, Audi etc as many posts on this forum have indicated. The simple fact is any defect an orbital can take out a Flex can take out quicker, faster, and usually with a less aggressive product/pad combo as it is almost twice as powerful and includes forced rotation. You also can acheive these results with a 6.5" or 7" pad covering much more surface area.

The Flex does have some issues, you can't use smaller backing plates unless you buy the Edge system so no 4" pads for tight areas. And a PC's correcting ability can be boosted quite a bit by dropping down to 4" pads for spot correcting. I've hard 105 can level 1000 grit sanding marks, I think there's even a video on youtube of it. As I pointed out earlier the pros say the PC works better than a rotary with 105 so I don't think it's a case requiring a rotary to get the most correction. I found this picture of what 105 is capable of a medium hard clear in one polishing step (6" pad, speed 6)



Here's a quote from the same guy who posted that pic:

I had a flex for 2 months and after using the KBM with a PC and the flex, I sold the flex.

[Eddie6th]

Re: Flex VRG-3401 - Initial Impressions

In the end, one needs to pick the tool that works best for them. A lot of personal preferences go into the decision of tool choice.

I think that says a lot

[Bounty]

Re: Flex VRG-3401 - Initial Impressions

Bounty, you seem to be pretty passionate in your views and I'm sure your are more experienced than I am.

I wouldn't necessarily say that but if you're saying that the KBM and an orbital has fully replaced a rotary then I would hope you have used all three...PC, Flex, and rotary...as I have otherwise you're simply parroting what someone else posted on another board as fact.

But here is a thread on Autopia with some pros who would disagree with your position:

Works better on a PC then rotary. (Never thought I would say that.)

I can get a full correction QUICKER with the PC and the old M105...than I can with a rotary

I agree about using KBPCM is faster for me then a rotary, even when using the new M105.

ever since getting 105 I have been using it with the pc and orange pad.

I have found my rotaries (all four of them) sitting on the bench in favor of my PC and flex.

As I stated earlier...internet hype. Look at the history of those posters at Autopia. These guys promote the latest internet phenom product like Blackfire or Zaino or Dodo or Zymol or anything else with new product placement. Then they turn around two months later when something new comes out and pump that up like there's no tomorrow. They have even had to ban people who were secretly promoting products on the boards. Autopia is a big soap opera 90% of the time.

When you refer to "professional detailers" you're referring to guys who post on a forum. The professional detailers on this forum...some of whom I have seen personally during details would never make a statement that a PC cuts better than a rotary. It's also funny to note how you failed to catch all the posts by others who stated that they prefer the rotary over the KBM with a PC in the 20+ pages of that thread. You might want to take a trip over to www.truthindetailing.com where Kevin Brown (yes, that Kevin Brown) resides and read what he says personally about his method and how it is not intended to replace a Flex or rotary but add corrective ability suited to the new SMAT technology.

The Flex does have some issues, you can't use smaller backing plates unless you buy the Edge system so no 4" pads for tight areas. And a PC's correcting ability can be boosted quite a bit by dropping down to 4" pads for spot correcting.

The Edge backing plate for the Flex allows you to use any size pad...including 4" so your info is wrong there. And since the G110 and PC ship with a larger backing plate you're looking at buying smaller ones for either machine.

I've heard 105 can level 1000 grit sanding marks, I think there's even a video on youtube of it.

You have heard...I think that is the issue. I have worked with wetsanding marks of that grit and removing it effectively and easily is not something a PC can do with any technique/pad/product when compared to a Flex and nowhere near a rotary.

As I pointed out earlier the pros say the PC works better than a rotary with 105 so I don't think it's a case requiring a rotary to get the most correction. I found this picture of what 105 is capable of a medium hard clear in one polishing step (6" pad, speed 6)

I would highly suggest you learn to use a rotary and then do some test panels side-by-side to compare. Hearing it on the internet, from me, from others, whatever isn't going to change your mind. The only way is to do it and experience it for yourself. Or if you're big into what the "pro's" say, why not start a thread here about PC versus rotary and see what the developers of M105/M205...like Mike Phillips, Mike Pennington, et al...have to say? I think you'll find it enlightening...

Not sure what any of your PC versus rotary discussion has to do in a thread about a Flex but since you've interjected yourself with this hijacked topic and you're new here, I'll oblige. In your mind, a PC corrects better than a rotary because of KBM. So what about a Flex using KBM? That must be the super machine because it is a PC on steroids already and now add the KBM and nothing ever invented by man could beat it...

The Flex possesses the same oscillating action as an orbital, although it can do so upwards of 9,000 opm's versus a little over 6,000 for an orbital. In addition, it also has over 450 rpm's of forced rotation like a rotary. It uses the same size standard pads (6.5") and the KBM has been utilized with it for success.

So, if you have used both and are making comparisons, we'd love to hear of your experiences and how they contribute to the original topic of this thread. It was authored for the many members of the forum who asked me to share my impressions of my new machine and its uses on subsequent details. It wasn't meant to spawn tangent debates on orbitals versus rotaries.

In closing, I'd suggest strongly to not believe everything you hear...on the internet or in life. Experience is the best teacher. This happens a lot in motorsports. There were always guys at the drag strip or at the races that just saw Horsepower TV or read the latest Road & Track and based their "knowledge" from that. But that's a lot different from getting behind the wheel or turning the wrenches yourself. I encourage you to go out and use all three machines and decide for yourself what works best. Heck, if you're ever down this way you're more than welcome to use mine as I still have all three of them here...

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Flex VRG-3401 - Initial Impressions

Let's keep in mind that here on MOL we do not take kindly to personal attacks. This is a family friendly forum and we strongly adhere to the that idea.

I think this thread has not only turned a little too personal and passionate, but it has out-lived the point of being useful in terms of offering advice or useful information and turned into an offering of opinions.

I'm going to lock it for now and consider opening it back up after some time for everyone to push away from the keyboard and relax.

Mark