C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

[blackmachdown]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

I feel your frustration, im to the point where meh, its fine being all swirled for now, ill detail it later!

[Demon_C5]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

Okay - So now you have me dieing to see the end result! I am just getting ready to give my Vette the once over from scratch, using the 5-steps to get her back in shape, and I have learned many, many lessons from this thread. Please post pix when possible and tell me that it was all well worth it and that she gleems proudly!

You bet!

I think I'll be able to finish the actual buffing process with M105 today and start going over it with M205 with the finish pad. Since all of the swirls/scratches will be gone, I think that will go much much faster since I won't have to inspect every panel so closely. I can't wait to see it either once finished.

[BACNBLACK]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

Okay - So now you have me dieing to see the end result! I am just getting ready to give my Vette the once over from scratch, using the 5-steps to get her back in shape, and I have learned many, many lessons from this thread. Please post pix when possible and tell me that it was all well worth it and that she gleems proudly!

[Demon_C5]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

^That picture is not what I would typically describe as 'micro-marring' nor, in my experience, would that type of marring be covered by most typical glazes. 'Micro-marring', at least how I use the term, is often very fine, very frequent machine marks that often appear as a very light haze on the paint's surface. Because this particular type of marring is most often created by a variable speed random orbital or a dual-action polisher the marks tend to be tight, little circles. By comparison most swirl marks are longer, elongated scratches that only 'appear' circular when they radiate outwards from a light source.

In that picture*I* see straight line, swirl mark damage. Micro hazing would look like very fine, very little 'j-hooks' that would appear almost uniformly over the surface.

The micro-marring is definitely there after M105 application, not so much after M205. That was probably a bad picture of it. The side to side is from my Final Swipe of the section, I need to work on that.

How exactly are you removing the polish residue? What type of cloth and technique are you using, and how does the surface look under lighting before you remove the residue? Again going on what little information I can discern from that picture, the damage does not look like it has been instilled during the mechanical polishing process. After you finish polishing a section, try using a a high quality microfiber, and wipe in a straight line motion, either up and down or left and right. See if this has any effect on the marring you are seeing.

I am using Meguiars Supreme Shine Microfiber Towels. I wipe from side to side and up to down only. I also currently have 3 Yellow Polishing Pads and 2 Tan Finishing Pads.

Always work clean- Make sure that your pad is clean and free of polish residue, expelled paint, or any contamination. Make sure that the surface is free of any dust or dirt that could become stuck between the paint and pad and scratch the surface.

Massage the product through out the pad as much as possible. Then place the pad on the machine and turn it on. Using your finger, pressed into a cotton terry cloth, lightly scrub the pad from the inside out to remove excess product and moisture. Use this technique after each polishing application to help keep the pad from becoming contaminated. Add a little more polish to the primed pad.

I clean the foam pad after every other application. I have a very thick terry towel that I use to press the pad into and turn the machine on. This is how I've always cleaned it. How do I do it without taking a bath in the stuff? Especially after hours of working on it and scrubbing it with my fingers after every application? Also, I've never primed the pad. I don't have Final Inspection...could I also spray it with Ultimate Detailer or would it be wrong to mix products in this case as well? I don't have a simple spray bottle on hand to fill with water, I'll have to get one.

[TH0001]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

^That picture is not what I would typically describe as 'micro-marring' nor, in my experience, would that type of marring be covered by most typical glazes. 'Micro-marring', at least how I use the term, is often very fine, very frequent machine marks that often appear as a very light haze on the paint's surface. Because this particular type of marring is most often created by a variable speed random orbital or a dual-action polisher the marks tend to be tight, little circles. By comparison most swirl marks are longer, elongated scratches that only 'appear' circular when they radiate outwards from a light source.


In that picture*I* see straight line, swirl mark damage. Micro hazing would look like very fine, very little 'j-hooks' that would appear almost uniformly over the surface.


Maybe these questions have been asked already and I missed them, but I like to trouble shoot from the end to the front.


How exactly are you removing the polish residue? What type of cloth and technique are you using, and how does the surface look under lighting before you remove the residue? Again going on what little information I can discern from that picture, the damage does not look like it has been instilled during the mechanical polishing process. After you finish polishing a section, try using a a high quality microfiber, and wipe in a straight line motion, either up and down or left and right. See if this has any effect on the marring you are seeing.


If it this has no effect, and you still see marring in the opposite direction you are wiping, at least we have eliminated one obvious variable.


Next, instead of throwing more products at the paint, lets focus on the goals and techniques of each step. To keep it simple we will consist of two steps: Defect Removal or the removal of swirl marks and Final Polishing, which should increase over-all gloss by removing any damage installed during the Defect Removal Stage.


Defect Removal: You should always use the least aggressive combination of product, pad, and machine to remove the defects, but this will still the most aggressive combination you use. Since I skimmed the thread I am assuming that you have the older style pads, in which case I would guess that the 8006 Yellow Polishing Pad and M105 is probably going to be your most aggressive combination that you should use.


Ideally, the goals of defect removal are to 1) remove the defects and 2) the leave as little scouring as possible behind so that only one, high gloss step is required.

1. Remove the defects- This seems to be the least of your worries. While with practice you could speed up the process, it seems that you are getting the initial defects out of the paint, which is commendable. Most machine polishing discussions focus on this point as most people struggle with achieving defect removal.

1. Leave as little scouring behind as possible- I think could be where you are struggling, so I am going to focus a lot on this section. With older style, traditional diminishing abrasives, it was very common leave a lot of scouring on the paint, which would require a number of steps (each moving progressively finer) to remove the finer and finer scouring. Meguiar's M105 uses a very fine 'Micro' abrasive that traditionally leaves behind a very, almost wax ready, surface on most paints.

If you are not getting a very nice, high gloss, haze free finish then we have to figure out why not. Something, somewhere, is causing the surface to scour.


Always work clean- Make sure that your pad is clean and free of polish residue, expelled paint, or any contamination. Make sure that the surface is free of any dust or dirt that could become stuck between the paint and pad and scratch the surface.


Ensure the pad is clean and remains clean- This, in my opinion, is the most important step when using a product that features non-diminishing abrasives such as those used with M105. When I use M105 with a dual-action polisher I typically notice that the first section I polish has almost a flawless finish. The second section has slightly more micro-marring. The third section has significantly more. Why is this?


As you polish the paint you are removing a minuscule, almost immeasurable, amount of paint. As that paint is abraded away it becomes impregnated on the pad. This removed or expelled paint can act to cause the abrasives in M105 (which do not break down) to 'clump' together, forming larger abrasives. These new clumped abrasives act more aggressive and can cause micro scouring. So how to avoid it?


By cleaning your pad frequently and using multiple pads through out the process. Now I know you are fed up with buying new products and I am not suggesting you buy a bunch of new pads on the whim that I am correct, but, lets test for it anyways. Clean your 8006 pad thoroughly and remove as much residue as possible. Then let it dry completely.


Now we have a fresh pad. Before we start polishing we want to prime to the pad as best as possible to reduce the chances of the pad itself rubbing against the paint and causing scouring. There are a lot of methods to priming the pad. The Kevin Brown Method works best but requires a little more patience and product. Meguiar's recommends misting the pad. I tend to use a hybrid of both. If you have Meguiar's M34 Final Inspection give the pad a light mist. If you do not have Final Inspection, a very fine mist of water will work. Now two lines of product across the pad in an X fashion then quickly massage the product through out the pad. If you have not misted the pad previously you may find it very hard to spread the product as it will kind of stick and absorb where you placed it.


Massage the product through out the pad as much as possible. Then place the pad on the machine and turn it on. Using your finger, pressed into a cotton terry cloth, lightly scrub the pad from the inside out to remove excess product and moisture. Use this technique after each polishing application to help keep the pad from becoming contaminated. Add a little more polish to the primed pad.


Now we are going to test a section of paint that you have already polished and removed the majority of the swirl marks from since the untouched versions still have swirl marks that might it difficult to see when the micro-marring is occurring. Polish the section similar to how you have been, making sure to work the section for at least 30 seconds, probably more. Remove the residue carefully and inspect the paint closely. In general the paint will be nearly or completely haze free. What I think might be happening is that you have to polish each section so many times to fully removal the swirl marks, that by the time the swirls are removed, the pad has become contaminated, and is now instilling it's own micro-hazing. Assuming that the paint came out clear, let's move on to a section that still has swirl marks.


Before polishing the section for the first time remember to clean the pad by pressing a towel firmly against it and lightly scrubbing it from the inside out. Now polish the section as many applications as necessary to remove the swirl marks, remembering to scrub-clean the pad after each application. Stop after each application (series of passes) and inspect the paint for both defect removal and to see if any faint micro-hazing is appearing. It would be my guess that you are able to remove the swirls while still preventing the paint from hazing.


As you polish around the car, even scrub-cleaning the pad after each application, you will get to the point that the pad will begin to instill marring. At this point the pad needs to be replaced with a clean, fresh pad. The key to inspect closely every step of the way to keep the ball rolling forward.


Final Polishing-


If you keep the pad clean and change (or wash) frequently you should have very little marring left after the defect removal stage. I believe that you have an older 8” tan finishing pad, which I have never used with this combination before. However it should work for this combination.


Keep in mind that M205 has similar abrasives to M105, so you have to keep the pad clean and fresh. Make sure the panel is clean, then apply M205 on a clean, primed pad. Work into the paint for about 6 passes (series of strokes covering the working area), 3 in each direction. Wipe off the residue an inspect. If M105 left a great finish, M205 should finish it out. If you notice a degradation in surface quality it might be that your paint will respond to a different finishing polish or a problem with the pad. If we can at least get M105 finish out near perfect, then we begin to single out the different problems that can occur during final polishing.


Best of luck!

[Desertdawg]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

This was your after 205 picture,



I really don't think your going to see much of this in the sun unless you really lean in close. Once you apply a LSP it's only going to look better.

A friend in our Corvette club here in Az, bought a black Mercedes for a daily driver that was really rough, he spent a couple of months working on it and now it's beautiful. When he had the time he would work one fender, or door at a time, sometimes taking 4 or 5 evenings to complete each section, using about the same products you have. His persistence paid off and now it looks like a brand new paint job!

Like I said before, move on and work on the rest of your Corvette, you can always spend the rest of the year fixing the worst spots, but for now it sounds like you really need to finish a trip around it once so you can get out in the sun and see how much improvement you have already made!

I'm dying to see your pictures after you get some ColorX on there.....

[Bounty]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

So I guess I'll use the dawn soak and hand wash method. Any specific recommendation for diluting the Dawn? How exactly do you hand wash them?

Probably some fairly basic questions.

No real specific dilution formula for me when I used to use Dawn. A good ounce or so in a 5-gallon bucket filled halfway and agitate to mix solution and create some sudsing. I would soak the pads in there for about an hour.

When I was ready to clean I would drain the bucket and then thoroughly squeeze out the pads. You'll see the water mixed with polish come pouring out. I have a wash sink in the laundry room where I used to hand wash them under as hot a water temp as I could stand . Scrub the surface with my fingers and just let the running, hot water soak in and squeeze it out. After 5 or 6 times it'll start coming out clear.

I appreciate having moved to the dedicated pad cleaning solution because it realy does a great job dissolved in the bucket. I soak the pads in there when done as I'm going around the car polishing. When it's time to wash them they only need a couple of minutes of rinsing/cleaning by hand.

You should do a search on the Meg's pads for cleaning options recommended...

[Demon_C5]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

So I guess I'll use the dawn soak and hand wash method. Any specific recommendation for diluting the Dawn? How exactly do you hand wash them?

Probably some fairly basic questions.

[Bounty]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

I believe that I only have the regular softbuff pads for the DA. I have seen that the 2.0 versions can be machine washed. I've read mixed posts about people washing the regular ones in a sink with warm water.

How would you guys recommend washing the v.1 softbuff pads for further use?

Since I've been experimenting with random product, I'd like to wash them thorougly of the product saturated in them. Then I'll designate pads for particular product so I don't cross-contaminate them. It's all getting very confusing as I've been working through this.

I've seen three washing methods used to success:

1. Dawn soak for an hour or so and then hand wash....

2. Pad washer setup for a 5-gallon bucket (expensive but effective)...

3. Mix a 5-gallon bucket full of water and a pad cleaner solution and soak pads for an hour then hand or machine wash...

Don't use a detergent or degreaser as this can dissolve the adhesive between the pad and velcro backing as well as deposit residues within the pad. You can air dry or use the machine at tumble/low setting.

[Demon_C5]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

I believe that I only have the regular softbuff pads for the DA. I have seen that the 2.0 versions can be machine washed. I've read mixed posts about people washing the regular ones in a sink with warm water.

How would you guys recommend washing the v.1 softbuff pads for further use?

Since I've been experimenting with random product, I'd like to wash them thorougly of the product saturated in them. Then I'll designate pads for particular product so I don't cross-contaminate them. It's all getting very confusing as I've been working through this.

[Bounty]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

I'm going to finish the rest of the car with the DA, as it really is removing all of the hard scratches/swirls. It's doing a great job, just obviously leaving the micro-marring in the process. If glaze/wax will fill that in and bring the color back...then I will have achieved exactly what I set out to accomplish.

And that's what matters....that you are happy with the results!

...achieved maybe a 90% completed finish with the rest being able to hopefully mask with glaze/wax...

This is probably as good as you're gonna get with the machine/products you have...

I honestly don't mind having to reapply glaze/wax after several washes since now I have this DA. It's SO much faster and easier to apply it!

Then you've got the right outlook to maintain a vehicle that is a daily driven and 90% perfect car....

I hope you guys don't get the wrong impression here, I am quite impressed with the ease of use with the DA...and even more impressed with how you (Bounty) and Mike have responded to every question I have come up with. It goes to show just how great Meguiars and it's community support everybody who invests in their methods and products.

Thank YOU sir for the kind words...just trying to help others as they have helped me in the past.

As far as my particular project goes, I (like everyone else hear I imagine ) am just simply too obsessed with trying to get a perfect finish. I know it "probably" can't be done with the tools/products I have or will require way more time and effort than I am willing to put forth at the moment, and I just need to learn to live with what I've acccomplished so far.

Yup...

Here is my only real concern. I don't care about or mind the micromarring. My only worry is if it will show up in regular daylight or if it's in direct hard sunlight.

Direct sunlight is going to be the harshest judge. I would take one test area to completion....polish/glaze/wax as if it were a completed panel. Then roll the car out into the sun and see what you have. Realize no spot on the car is likely to look better and not likely to look worse. This is what your finish will be. Can you live with it? Only you can decide but I think you'll be pleased. Let us know how it turns out!!

[Demon_C5]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

I'm going to finish the rest of the car with the DA, as it really is removing all of the hard scratches/swirls. It's doing a great job, just obviously leaving the micro-marring in the process. If glaze/wax will fill that in and bring the color back...then I will have achieved exactly what I set out to accomplish. Eliminated the really bad scratches and swirls from 10yrs of neglect, and achieved maybe a 90% completed finish with the rest being able to hopefully mask with glaze/wax. I honestly don't mind having to reapply glaze/wax after several washes since now I have this DA. It's SO much faster and easier to apply it!

I hope you guys don't get the wrong impression here, I am quite impressed with the ease of use with the DA...and even more impressed with how you (Bounty) and Mike have responded to every question I have come up with. It goes to show just how great Meguiars and it's community support everybody who invests in their methods and products.

As far as my particular project goes, I (like everyone else hear I imagine ) am just simply too obsessed with trying to get a perfect finish. I know it "probably" can't be done with the tools/products I have or will require way more time and effort than I am willing to put forth at the moment, and I just need to learn to live with what I've acccomplished so far.

Here is my only real concern. I don't care about or mind the micromarring. My only worry is if it will show up in regular daylight or if it's in direct hard sunlight. Before, the finish looked great until you had the noonday sun directly overhead and glaring down on the paint. Now, those scratches and hard swirls are virtually gone on the panels that I've completed. Only micromarring is left. I wonder, how much would that micromarring actually show in regular daylight and not under some crazy high intensity shoplight used to inspect defects from a nose-length away from the paint?

Even more so with glaze/wax coatings on it. Maybe it's about time I actually backed the car out of the garage and took a look?

[Bounty]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

So...I'm going to be finishing it up this weekend and hope for the best. As it stands right now, it looks like I'll have to do deal with micro-marring and apparently a slightly less shiny finish. I'll try ColorX and see if that helps, but I sincerely have my doubts. I'm doing the whole car with M105, then going to do M205, follow it up with one coat or two of Show Car Glaze, then put on at least two coats of NXT Tech Wax. Once all that is done, it is what it is.

And honestly, I think that's your best bet. Professional detailing (what you're trying to do here) is most definitely not about just going out and buying one or two products...most of us have shelves of polishes and pads and products because each car is different and can require different products. If you were going to be a mechanic would you buy one wrench and one screwdriver? Similar thinking applies here.

To begin with, you have purchased a random orbital buffer that has added to your work time not detracted from it. A Flex or rotary are required to easily remove defects and perfect the finish on a hard clearcoat like a Corvette. The "scrubbing" action that a G110 or PC7424 can have on a scratch-sensitive surface tends to leave some micromarring with aggressive combinations of pad and/or polish. You'll be breaking your back trying to chase out that last 10% without a Flex or rotary and as I said at the beginning of this thread...there is NO easy, one- or two-step solution to Corvette clear with a random orbital buffer!

So here we are...your frustrated, tired of buying products, had your car parked usless for a month, spent a lot of money, and mistrustful of internet advice (as you should be). I have been in your position in the past. I would honestly recommend putting away the buffer. You're not removing any more defects with what you have and you're not willing to purchase what you need or invest more time required than a one- or two-step process. Now you truly understand why someone would just write a check for $500 or $600 and have their car done by a pro and returned the next day swirl free...

Wrap up your buffing, apply the glaze (which will fill in and mask some micromarring), apply two nice, even coats of NXT 2.0 (which will further mask slight surface defects) and then inspect. I think you'll find a surface you can live with...especially now that you know how much time and cash would be needed to improve upon it.

Good luck and I hope you acheive the results that satisfy you...

[Demon_C5]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

Well, I know one thing...I'm done buying products. I can't keep throwing money at this in the hopes that I might eventually get closer to where I want. I understand what you guys are saying, but everything I try has little to no effect and the only answer seems to be "buy this, this, and this". I do that, and I'm right back where I started. Meanwhile, I'm getting conflicting information from several different people in how to approach this.

One person says to take the time to do a test spot and get a process going and try to keep it down to two steps. Another person says use the agressive product, then go down to the less agressive pad, then go to the next less agressive productive with agressive pad, then to a less agressive pad, etc. That's WAY more steps. It's all very confusing and not everyone seems to be on the same page in how to tackle this.

I know that it's all good information, and every paint needs to be worked differently. But from my standpoint, I've had this car in the garage for over a month now and am not even remotely close to half done. I keep buying products from people giving advice here and am getting no results. I'm told my technique is good, so I'm at the point now where I just can't keep tossing money and time at this. I have to get it completed.

So...I'm going to be finishing it up this weekend and hope for the best. As it stands right now, it looks like I'll have to do deal with micro-marring and apparently a slightly less shiny finish. I'll try ColorX and see if that helps, but I sincerely have my doubts. I'm doing the whole car with M105, then going to do M205, follow it up with one coat or two of Show Car Glaze, then put on at least two coats of NXT Tech Wax. Once all that is done, it is what it is.

[Bounty]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

The panels that I have buffed using M105 appear a duller black under my LED light and slightly less reflective compared to the sections I have not touched at all. Is this normal?

This is just M105, M205 and ColorX have not been used yet.

In a way. I had a very similar experience after using a PC7424 with a cutting pad and M105 on the identical clearcoat of an '07 Cadillac STS-V this past week. The pad/M105 combination caused scouring on the surface of the clear due to the aggressivity and action of a random orbit.

This "haze" you experience may very well be scouring on the surface from using the M105 on an exceptionally hard and at the same time very scratch sensitive clearcoat. Since you've tried chasing the M105 with M205 and Color-X with little success I would go with something less aggressive the M105 like Ultimate Compound just not as mild as M205. Swirl-X 2.0 or Scratch-X are other options as well.

As I stated in a previous response to this thread I have used Ultimate Compound to chase induced marring left by M105 on several occasions with success. I know I also mentioned the concept of gradually stepping down your combination of pad/polish. After hitting the car with a cutting or polishing pad and M105, repeat the process with a finishing pad and M105. Then go back to a polishing pad with a less aggressive polish and then the finishing pad with the same medium polish and so on. I think you're jumping from M105 and stepping too far down the ladder of aggressivity and that's why you're not removing the micromarring.

A polishing or cutting pad has a mechanical abrading action (slight to heavy depending on material) and thus can add to a polish's cutting ability or slighten it in combination with the pad. Going over an area with the same product while using a less aggressive type of pad is just slight enough of a change to take things down a notch and begin the induced damage removal process. Then you follow up with the polishing pad and your next step down in polish....concept is simple and I think you'll get the level of perfection you're looking for.

This is the hard part, my friend. As Todd always tries to make me understand: You will spend 50% of your time and effort trying to chase that last 10% of perfection. You could always glaze it and then NXT it and the fillers will cover the micromarring and it will look stunning....until 4 or 5 washes. Or you could keep correcting. Having done dozens of Vettes, I honestly think a Flex's power is the key. But since you're sticking DA, then there's a lot of work ahead and you might need more products. Up to you.