C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

[Bounty]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

Here are the video demonstrations I created of using both the M105 and M205 products:

M105 Process

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXXRxZMYbm0

M205 Process
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elcjhGGgxuw

Demon, I saw the videos and here are a few suggestions...

1. I would tape off and mask a specific work area to gauge progress and get side-by-side comparisons of untouched areas so that you can accurately gauge your defect removal. This also prevents getting product on rubber trim and protects other panels. In the M105 video you can see where when you kick on the DA you're getting the pad off the rear deck and slightly onto the rear bumper. That body line has VERY thin paint and some auto tape there would protect against burning through it unknowingly...

2. Hand speed looks good but it's hard to tell how much pressure you're using. Moderate pressure on a high speed setting (5 or 6) for the first 4 passes then lighter pressure at the same speed for the next two passes.

3. By passes I mean one vertical or horzontal trip around your work area. In the video I would say you completed two passes. You need at least two passes in each direction with moderate pressure followed by one more each direction at less pressure (same machine speed setting) for a total of at least six.

4. If you've completed a full application of the M105, then use an IPA wipedown to properly inspect the area. If you're not satisfied with the results give it another application of M105. Just going to M205 isn't going to remove more swirls...it'll only enhance/correct the M105 application.

5. As Mike already stated...move on to a different, less aggresive pad for the M205 application. Also, make sure to evenly spread your product over the taped-off work area prior to starting the machine so you get uniform coverage on paint and pad.

Keep at it as it sure looks like you're catching on...

[Demon_C5]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

This is crazy, just can't seem to get that micro-marring to go away. Maybe the paint is just too sensitive? Ive tried using the finishing pad, spreading the product first, using little more than machine pressure, using speed 4, and used 2 complete attempts. Still just as bad.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

Hi Matt,

Good talking to you on the phone, as we discussed,

For anytime you're using a DA Polisher, start out by spreading the product out over the area you're going to work so you have a uniform layer of fresh/new product on the area you're going to work - then start making your overlapping passes.

This insures a uniform cut for your first initial pass.

Remember, after you make your initial passes where most of the cutting is being done, (the first 4 passes or so), after that lighten up so you have just a little more than the weight of the polisher on the face of the pad.

Keep in mind, polishing paint is an art form not a simple grinding process. You're doing good, just keep focusing on the task at hand and perfect your technique.

Next, for your M205 application, switch to a softer finishing pad, turn your speed down to the 4.0 to 4.5 speed setting, (On the G110), and again, make your initial cutting passes to remove whatever the M105 process is leaving behind and then after the first 4-6 passes, make another two passes with less pressure.

Never buff to a dry buff and always wipe any excess product off immediately while it's hopefully still wet/moist using a premium quality microfiber polishing cloth.

[Demon_C5]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

Here are the video demonstrations I created of using both the M105 and M205 products:

M105 Process

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXXRxZMYbm0

M205 Process
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elcjhGGgxuw

[Demon_C5]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

Just used both M105 and M205 with speed 5, both with the yellow pad. Here are some photos of the before/after, just don't mind the fingerprints in the first image where I bumped the car when adjusting the focus.

After M105


After M205



I took some great videos as well, uploading then now to YouTube so maybe someone can "see" what I might be doing wrong. Also, some specs of dust/compound particles can be seen...working in a small garage.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

Read through this and keep these things in mind...

Here's a list of the most common problems

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
2. Move the polisher too fast over the surface.
3. Too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
4. Too little pressure on the head of the unit.
5. Too much pressure on the head of the unit so the pad quits rotating.
6. Not keeping the pad flat while working your product.
7. Too much product, too little product.
8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.

Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

1. Shrink your work area down, the harder the paint the smaller the area you can work. The average area should be and average of about 16" by 16" up to 20" by 20" or so. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot.
2. For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's really easy to move the polisher too quickly because the sound of the motor spinning fast has a psychological effect to for some reason want to make people move the polisher fast. Also the way most people think is that, "If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster", but it doesn't work that way.
3. When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting, again... this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the diminishing abrasives, the foam type, and the pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches. It's a leveling process that's somewhat difficult because the tool is safe/gentle while in most cases, modern clear coat paints are harder than traditional single stage paints and this makes them hard to work on. This is also why people get frustrated, they don't understand paint technology, all they know is their paint swirls easy and getting the swirls out is difficult and thus frustrating.
4. For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much pressure and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.
5. Just the opposite of item #4, people think that by pushing harder on the polisher they can work faster and be more aggressive, but the truth is the clutch in the tool is a safety mechanism to prevent burning and will cause the pad to stop rotating, thus less cleaning or abrading action and once in a while this will lead a person to then post on the forum something like this, "Hey my pad doesn't rotate". There needs to be a balance of enough pressure to remove defects and keep the pad rotating but yet not too much pressure as to stop the rotating action. This balance is affected by a lot of things, things like type of chemical, some chemicals provide more lubrication and the pad will spin easier, curved surfaces or any raise in body lines will tend to stop the pad from rotating. This is where experience on how to address these areas comes into play or you do the best you can and move on. It's not a perfect tool, nor a perfect system, but it's almost always better than working/cleaning by hand.
6. Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one side of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease cleaning ability.
7. Too much product over lubricates the surface and this won't allow the diminishing abrasives to do their job plus it will increase the potential for messy splatter as well as cause pad saturation. Too little product will keep the pad from rotating due to no lubrication and there won't be enough diminishing abrasives to do any work. Again it's a balance that comes with experience, or another way of saying this would be it's a balance that comes with hours of buffing out a car to learn what to do and what not to do. Information like what you're reading here is just an edge to decrease your learning curve. Hope this is helping.
8. Most people don't clean their pad often enough and most of the time the reason for this is because they don't know they're supposed to clean their pad often and they don't know how to clean their pad. Again, that's why this forum is here to help you with both of these things. You should clean your pad after every application of product or every other application of product, your choice, most of the time cleaning your pad after every other application of product works pretty well. It enables you to work clean and enables the foam pad, the polisher and the next application of fresh product too all work effectively. How to clean your pad will be addressed below sooner versus later, but not at the time of this posting. (Sorry, I'm behind a keyboard, not a video camera

The first 4 are the most common.

[Demon_C5]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

I see, and thank you.

I've been using the wrong speeds then, for starters. Still a little nervous with the machine. I'll try doing another test spot with speed 5 using both compounds and see what it does. I will also try and get good photos this afternoon.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

I tried the M205 last night after the M105 pass with the finishing pad and low speed and it looked exactly the same.

I'll try again...

Low speed is for applying a finishing wax, if you're trying to refine the paint after the heavy compounding step then you want to be using the M205 with the 5.0 speed setting.

You should be using the 5.0 speed setting for the compound too...

When you go to apply a finishing wax then you would use the 3.0 speed setting as anything lower than 3 is so slow it can make it more difficult or sluggish to move the pad over the surface.

[Demon_C5]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

I tried the M205 last night after the M105 pass with the finishing pad and low speed and it looked exactly the same.

I'll try again...

[Mike Phillips]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

A few questions just to make sure I'm doing things right.

1. The hard scratches and swirls are virtually gone. Although, it appears that the M105 with the yellow polishing foam pad are leaving very tiny microscopic swirl marks. They are very tough to see, and you have to have a bright light right up against the paint with your head down there to really see them in my garage. I don't know if they will be noticeable in direct sunlight, I might back the car out of the garage once done and see. Is this normal, and will a light pass with M205 decrease their visibility or eliminate them?

There is no normal, every paint system buffs differently, some paints buff really great and some don't, what works great on one paint might not always work great on a different paint, that's why it's important to test like you're doing.

If the M105 is leaving fine swirls then go ahead and try the M205 with a finishing pad next. Do a Test Spot so you can compare the M205 results with the M105 results. Usually the hood is a good place to do your test so you can look down on the finish when inspecting.

2. After I finish up with M205, could I still use a glaze like Show Car Glaze to really bring out the depth of the black paint and make it that wet look? Is it even necessary since M205 does sort of the same thing (so I read...)?

M205 is a light cleaner/polish and M07 is a non-abrasive pure polish, they are very different product but actually product very similar results. If the finish looks great after the M205 then might as well move on to the wax step. Meguiar's always states polishing with a pure polish is an optional step so you can if you want but because M205 takes your paint to maximum clarity, you can skip the #7 step and go to the waxing step.

It's going slow...but making progress. Oh yeah, is it even possible to burn the paint at all with the DA using M105 and the yellow foam pad? When looking real close I seem to have either found burned spots or spots that are very very thin paint. One is all the way across the corner seam on the rear bumper piece and the other is on the trunk up in the corner by the windshield. I've worked the rest of the car and have never seen it anywhere else. It may have been there before as it looks like someone used a rotary on it before....

If you have paint anywhere on the car that is thin enough that if you were to rub it by hand and go through, then yes a DA Polisher could also burn through this same area. If you're paint is still in good condition then it's usually the least of your worries.

[Demon_C5]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

I had to order the M105 compound over the weekend and it came in this afternoon. Picked it up and got started right away.

First off...I LOVE THAT STUFF!!! My god, it's a thing of beaty.

Ok, with that out of the way... It seems to be taking out 90% of the scratches/swirl marks on the first pass. I have refined my process a bit to speed things up. I'm doing one pass per section with M105 (speed 4 moderate pressure) and moving on. I'm going to finish up the whole car, then come back over it with M205 with a low speed pass (2 or 3) and light pressure.

A few questions just to make sure I'm doing things right.

1. The hard scratches and swirls are virtually gone. Although, it appears that the M105 with the yellow polishing foam pad are leaving very tiny microscopic swirl marks. They are very tough to see, and you have to have a bright light right up against the paint with your head down there to really see them in my garage. I don't know if they will be noticeable in direct sunlight, I might back the car out of the garage once done and see. Is this normal, and will a light pass with M205 decrease their visibility or eliminate them?

2. After I finish up with M205, could I still use a glas like Show Car Glaze to really bring out the depth of the black paint and make it that wet look? Is it even necessary since M205 does sort of the same thing (so I read...)?


It's going slow...but making progress. Oh yeah, is it even possible to burn the paint at all with the DA using M105 and the yellow foam pad? When looking real close I seem to have either found burned spots or spots that are very very thin paint. One is all the way across the corner seam on the rear bumper piece and the other is on the trunk up in the corner by the windshield. I've worked the rest of the car and have never seen it anywhere else. It may have been there before as it looks like someone used a rotary on it before....

[Demon_C5]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

I'll see if I can pick one up locally. I've been using my 500W shop light, and that essentially does the same thing. Makes the finish look HORRIBLE, where if I turn it off....it instantly looks amazing like in the pictures I posted. I cringe when I go to turn on that light, I hate seeing the true condition of the paint.


That light would make it so much easier though. Obviously the large shop light I use has a lot of limitations. Something handheld would be far better.

I'd like to set a goal to have the car finished by June 1, since we have a huge car show in June. So we'll see. I think once I have the right product, get the right handskills, and get a method/process going I'll be able to make faster progress.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

I want the finish on my car to come as close to perfection as it can get. It's a garage queen that is only out on nice days and I only drive it to car club functions/meets and car shows. I want it as good as I can get it, and I don't care how long it takes.

If you don't have a Brinkman Swirl Finder Light you're going to want to get one and for your goal it would probably be best to only tackle on panel a day and stretch the project out over a few months.

Then after each panel you complete start being more careful how you wipe it down or wash it so you don't put swirls back into the paint.

Last time I was in Pep Boys the had the exact Brinkman Flashlight you want to get for around $30.00

Here's what you're looking for...




Be wary... the Xenon Flashlight aka The Swirl Finder... is a Cruel Master

[Demon_C5]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

Thanks guys, I've read all those links...but I'm away from home and it sure wouldn't hurt to go over them again!

I want the finish on my car to come as close to perfection as it can get. It's a garage queen that is only out on nice days and I only drive it to car club functions/meets and car shows. I want it as good as I can get it, and I don't care how long it takes.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: C5 Vette - 1st DA Use

Study this before starting again with your more aggressive product.


Tips & Techniques for using the G110, G100, G220 and the PC Dual Action Polisher
(These are all similar tools)

After teaching hundreds of classes here at Meguiar's, there are some common mistakes most people make when trying to remove swirls and scratches with a dual action polisher. Most of them have to do with technique.




Here's a list of the most common problems

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
2. Move the polisher too fast over the surface.
3. Too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
4. Too little pressure on the head of the unit.
5. Too much pressure on the head of the unit so the pad quits rotating.
6. Not keeping the pad flat while working your product.
7. Too much product, too little product.
8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.

Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

1. Shrink your work area down, the harder the paint the smaller the area you can work. The average area should be and average of about 16" by 16" up to 20" by 20" or so. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot.
2. For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's really easy to move the polisher too quickly because the sound of the motor spinning fast has a psychological effect to for some reason want to make people move the polisher fast. Also the way most people think is that, "If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster", but it doesn't work that way.
3. When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting, again... this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the diminishing abrasives, the foam type, and the pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches. It's a leveling process that's somewhat difficult because the tool is safe/gentle while in most cases, modern clear coat paints are harder than traditional single stage paints and this makes them hard to work on. This is also why people get frustrated, they don't understand paint technology, all they know is their paint swirls easy and getting the swirls out is difficult and thus frustrating.
4. For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much pressure and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.
5. Just the opposite of item #4, people think that by pushing harder on the polisher they can work faster and be more aggressive, but the truth is the clutch in the tool is a safety mechanism to prevent burning and will cause the pad to stop rotating, thus less cleaning or abrading action and once in a while this will lead a person to then post on the forum something like this, "Hey my pad doesn't rotate". There needs to be a balance of enough pressure to remove defects and keep the pad rotating but yet not too much pressure as to stop the rotating action. This balance is affected by a lot of things, things like type of chemical, some chemicals provide more lubrication and the pad will spin easier, curved surfaces or any raise in body lines will tend to stop the pad from rotating. This is where experience on how to address these areas comes into play or you do the best you can and move on. It's not a perfect tool, nor a perfect system, but it's almost always better than working/cleaning by hand.
6. Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one side of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease cleaning ability.
7. Too much product over lubricates the surface and this won't allow the diminishing abrasives to do their job plus it will increase the potential for messy splatter as well as cause pad saturation. Too little product will keep the pad from rotating due to no lubrication and there won't be enough diminishing abrasives to do any work. Again it's a balance that comes with experience, or another way of saying this would be it's a balance that comes with hours of buffing out a car to learn what to do and what not to do. Information like what you're reading here is just an edge to decrease your learning curve. Hope this is helping.
8. Most people don't clean their pad often enough and most of the time the reason for this is because they don't know they're supposed to clean their pad often and they don't know how to clean their pad. Again, that's why this forum is here to help you with both of these things. You should clean your pad after every application of product or every other application of product, your choice, most of the time cleaning your pad after every other application of product works pretty well. It enables you to work clean and enables the foam pad, the polisher and the next application of fresh product too all work effectively. How to clean your pad will be addressed below sooner versus later, but not at the time of this posting. (Sorry, I'm behind a keyboard, not a video camera

The first 4 are the most common. Can't tell you how many times we hear a comment like this from someone in the garage after demonstrating the correct technique

"That's what I'm doing wrong"


The dual action polisher is a gentle tool, that's why people like it. People are afraid of machines because they're worried they're going to either instill swirls or burn through the paint. When they learn that this is pretty hard to do with this machine, so after enough research or after watching a demonstration they learn to trust it and try it.

Summary: People like the dual action polisher because it's oscillating action is safe and gentle to the surface.

Now follow me on this...
For the same reason people love the dual action polisher, (it's safe and gentle), a segment of people get frustrated with it because it won't remove all defects all the time. It won't tackle serious or deep defects quickly and easily. It won't always work on really hard paints. So for the same reason people love this tool, they also hate it, they just don't know why. Maybe after reading this post they will understand.


This is the reason this thread is so widely read and you can learn a lot from it if you'll only take the time to read through it.

PC + 83 not "Cutting" it! - The Limits of the Dual Action Polisher


Even the pictures of the paint on the white truck on the first page and the story behind it are powerful and REAL (This writer took them and did the testing with both the G100/PC and the RB).

When the G100/PC with a strong cleaner/polish like M83 and our W-8006 polishing pad doesn't remove the defects to your satisfaction or within an acceptable time limit the answer is not to get more aggressive with a more aggressive pad or chemical or both, the answer is to switch to a more powerful machine like the rotary buffer and or take the car to a Pro who knows how to use a rotary buffer, or learn to live with the defects.

Hope this helps...