Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

[Ivan Rajic]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

If you consider Ultimate Compound "too aggressive" then there's no need for cutting pads like the LC CCS Orange Pads as they have a mechanical abrading action. In fact, as Mike mentioned, if you're going with the pocketed CCS pads (the ones I use everyday) you cannot use anything but Meguiar's SMAT products like M105/205, Ultimate Compound, etc.

You see, the diminishing abrasives in the other compounds break down so you start with a harder cut and abrading action and as the abrasives wear they cut less and less. Like two or three products in one. Heavily abrasive in the very beginning to remove the defect and then gradually diminishing and reducing cut to polish to a high gloss.

Now, the pockets in the CCS pad trap material. If the abrasives have diminished to a point where they are now jeweling the surface and the little pockets re-introduce fresh, non-diminished abrasives to the surface you will marr the paint. So please research your entire product/pad combination together (CCS pads + SMAT compounds versus non-CCS pads + Diminishing Abrasive compounds) before causing induced damage.

I disagree with the ccs comment... I assume, and please correct me if I'm wrong Mike, that Mike was referring to breaking down of the DAT products not being too 'friendly' with ccs pads due to the pockets... if what you said is true, that the DAT products will marr paint when used with ccs pads because the pockets release 'fresh' abrasives even though the others are broken down, then the SMAT products will do the same because abrasives are constantly introduced and never 'go away'...

I see it more of a breaking down issue, which is why flat pads are great for DAT products.

[Bounty]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

... if what you said is true, that the DAT products will marr paint when used with ccs pads because the pockets release 'fresh' abrasives even though the others are broken down, then the SMAT products will do the same because abrasives are constantly introduced and never 'go away'...

SMAT products work by providing an even, consistent cut from start to finish. DAT products begin with a heavier cut and progressively diminsh to less of a cut. SMAT products never break down or "go away" regardless of pad. That's the point. That is why they are ideal for CCS pads or other pads using the Kevin Brown method which embeds material into the pad.

DAT products are basically using broken down abrasives to remove any induced damage, micromarring, etc from the surface from the heavier abrasives in their undiminished form when initially applied. If you reintroduce fresh product in the middle of this cycle it's the same as not working it in long enough and breaking down all abrasives....you get hazy, micromarred paint.

I think that's where you got confused...the SMAT's most successful technique to date (Kevin Brown method) actually depends on reintroduction of fresh product either from within the pad or re-lubrication of drying product. Thus, the difference between the two in working style, abrasive design, and varied cutting level lead one to select a specific pad design to optimize the use of each.

Can a professional use just about any pad with any compound? Sure. Should someone using them for the first time maximize the chances of causing micromarring by mixing and matching pads with compounds? No.

[Ivan Rajic]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

SMAT products work by providing an even, consistent cut from start to finish. DAT products begin with a heavier cut and progressively diminsh to less of a cut. SMAT products never break down or "go away" regardless of pad. That's the point. That is why they are ideal for CCS pads or other pads using the Kevin Brown method which embeds material into the pad.

DAT products are basically using broken down abrasives to remove any induced damage, micromarring, etc from the surface from the heavier abrasives in their undiminished form when initially applied. If you reintroduce fresh product in the middle of this cycle it's the same as not working it in long enough and breaking down all abrasives....you get hazy, micromarred paint.

I think that's where you got confused...the SMAT's most successful technique to date (Kevin Brown method) actually depends on reintroduction of fresh product either from within the pad or re-lubrication of drying product. Thus, the difference between the two in working style, abrasive design, and varied cutting level lead one to select a specific pad design to optimize the use of each.

Can a professional use just about any pad with any compound? Sure. Should someone using them for the first time maximize the chances of causing micromarring by mixing and matching pads with compounds? No.

I wasn't confused about anything... I was simply stating that the ccs pads work well with SMAT products due to the fact that they have pockets to provide the extra supply of product to possibly work on a larger area of paint while with the DAT products its completely opposite in that the extra product coming from the pockets will extend the person's working time in a bad way since 'fresh' abrasives will be introduced for polishing, while the older ones have already diminished...

I guess I can't see how it can cause marring considering the SMAT products have abrasives introduced as well... it's not like the SMAT abrasives are smarter and don't mar paint..

One could argue that yes DAT products can introduce marring because you polish, you break down 95% of the abrasives, then the other 5% come out of the pockets but since there's not enough lubrication on the pad and pad is too large for just the 5% marring will results... but it would be the same way with SMAT products when the lubricating agents are gone and if you keep going you see marring, or moreso than you would if you stop 'on time'

My point is that using DAT products with ccs pads isn't going to introduce marring that easily, or easier than with SMAT products.. it's just easier and more efficient to use DAT with flat and SMAT with CCS (or flat) pads.

[Bounty]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

... I was simply stating that the ccs pads work well with SMAT products due to the fact that they have pockets to provide the extra supply of product...

Exactly. The benefit is you're adding the same cut abrasive. SMAT never breaks down and therefore you not only can introduce new product but the best working technique (KBM) depends on it.

...while with the DAT products its completely opposite in that the extra product coming from the pockets will extend the person's working time in a bad way since 'fresh' abrasives will be introduced for polishing, while the older ones have already diminished...

Correct again....you're making my argument for me.

...I guess I can't see how it can cause marring considering the SMAT products have abrasives introduced as well... it's not like the SMAT abrasives are smarter and don't mar paint...

They're not smarter...just consistent. They constantly cut at the same rate so introducing product doesn't change the level of cut at any point on the pad's surface. DAT abrasives that have broken down and suddenly have new product introduced now have certain spots on the pads surface that are cutting like new and others that are not meaning you will have inconsistent results. Can't explain it any simpler than that...

One could argue that yes DAT products can introduce marring because you polish, you break down 95% of the abrasives, then the other 5% come out of the pockets but since there's not enough lubrication on the pad and pad is too large for just the 5% marring will results...

Although lubricity is another danger, the variance in cutting power of the already broken down abrasives versus the fresh abrasives released from the pockets is the major concern.

...but it would be the same way with SMAT products when the lubricating agents are gone and if you keep going you see marring, or moreso than you would if you stop 'on time'...

Exactly why the KBM depends on reintroducing lubricants via fresh product release from a properly primed pad and misting the surface to relubricate.

My point is that using DAT products with ccs pads isn't going to introduce marring that easily, or easier than with SMAT products...

My point is that it can be so I'll agree to disagree...

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

There is no problem with SMAT products with non-flat pads because the abrasives don't really break down anyways it's relative if they are on the face of the pad or in a pocket or a groove cut like in our Solo foam pads.

There is the potential for a problem when using DAT products with non-flat pads because it's possible for some of the diminishing abrasives to not break down uniformly over the buffing cycle, (time spend buffing), because they are in pockets or grooves. If these diminishing abrasives that have not fully broken down work their way into the buffing process at the end of the buffing cycle, then it's possible there could be swirls or hazing because of the abrasive that hadn't been broken down entering back into the process at the end of the process and thus not being fully worked until they too have completely broken down.

Does that make sense?

I know I've explained it better somewhere else on the forum...

[Bounty]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

There is the potential for a problem when using DAT products with non-flat pads because it's possible for some of the diminishing abrasives to not break down uniformly over the buffing cycle, (time spend buffing), because they are in pockets or grooves. If these diminishing abrasives that have not fully broken down work their way into the buffing process at the end of the buffing cycle, then it's possible there could be swirls or hazing because of the abrasive that hadn't been broken down entering back into the process at the end of the process and thus not being fully worked until they too have completely broken down.

Does that make sense?

I know I've explained it better somewhere else on the forum...

I love it when Mike comes in and explains something in a few sentences I've been trying to get across for three or four posts...

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

My point is that using DAT products with ccs pads isn't going to introduce marring that easily, or easier than with SMAT products.. it's just easier and more efficient to use DAT with flat and SMAT with CCS (or flat) pads.

All we're saying is that the potential exists for a problem. Might not ever be a problem, you wouldn't now without inspecting and testing.

One of our jobs when it comes to working on car paint is to reduce the potential for problems. You can do this for example by using the 2 Bucket Car Wash Method or by matching the right products to the right pads. Lots of ways to reduce the potential for problems.

[Ivan Rajic]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

Mike.. understood... I've used many DAT type products with G110 and 5.5" ccs pads with no marring whatsoever which is why I said why I said... I completely understand your point and obviously agree with it...

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

Mike.. understood... I've used many DAT type products with G110 and 5.5" ccs pads with no marring whatsoever which is why I said why I said... I completely understand your point and obviously agree with it...

Hey if you're system is working for you that's what's most important.

[ryukensfj]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

Wow so much detailing talk I don't understand. LOL Made me even more confuse now... So should I use Ultimate Compound, then follow up with M80, then seal it up for NXT 2.0? Is that a good combo? I know I should start with the least aggressive to get the job done.

So what products are DAT and what products are SMAT.

Maybe I just have to make it to this Saturday's class

[ClearlyCoated]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

Wow so much detailing talk I don't understand. LOL Made me even more confuse now... So should I use Ultimate Compound, then follow up with M80, then seal it up for NXT 2.0? Is that a good combo? I know I should start with the least aggressive to get the job done.

So what products are DAT and what products are SMAT.

Maybe I just have to make it to this Saturday's class

I think SMAT products are limited to the newer professional line products M105/M205, and consumer products Ultimate Compound, ScratchX 2.0, and SwirlX.

[ryukensfj]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

In fact, as Mike mentioned, if you're going with the pocketed CCS pads (the ones I use everyday) you cannot use anything but Meguiar's SMAT products like M105/205, Ultimate Compound, etc.

You say M105/205, and Ultimate Compound are SMAT but I read that compounds fall in the DAT category. This was from Mike Pennington's post. Then I researched up on Ultimate Compound and it says it is SMAT... Damn so confusing. What category does the Meguiar’s #80 Speed Glaze fall into?

M86 (So1o - Cut & Polish Cream), D151 (Paint Reconditioning Cream) & M105 (Ultra-Cut Compound) would fall into the "super micro abrasive" bucket. Even though they all use a different version / style of the "super micro abrasive".

M95 (Speed Cut) is a really blend of "diminishing" & "super micro abrasive"

All other cleaners, compounds, cleaner/polishes and cleaner/waxes, in our automotive line, would fall into the diminishing abrasive bucket.

The important thing to remember is....If the product works and exceeds expectations, that is the most important factor.

Please don't get hung up on the trees and miss the beauty of the forest

Mike

[Ivan Rajic]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

You say M105/205, and Ultimate Compound are SMAT but I read that compounds fall in the DAT category. This was from Mike Pennington's post. Then I researched up on Ultimate Compound and it says it is SMAT... Damn so confusing. What category does the Meguiar’s #80 Speed Glaze fall into?

M80 is in the diminishing abrasives category while, I think, Ultimate Compound is not.. I think Mike P was talking about the mirror glaze line not the consumer line... I think...

[Bounty]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

You say M105/205, and Ultimate Compound are SMAT but I read that compounds fall in the DAT category. This was from Mike Pennington's post. Then I researched up on Ultimate Compound and it says it is SMAT... Damn so confusing. What category does the Meguiar’s #80 Speed Glaze fall into?

Ivopivo is right, Ultimate Compound is SMAT...#80 is not. If you do a search on SMAT you'll see listed all the products utilizing this technology in both the Professional Detailer and Consumer lines.

[ryukensfj]

Re: Need Help Deciding: PC 7424 or Meguiars G110

ok... now the more I read on the forums the more it says that meg's pads are better because it is a flat surface.