Sand scratches

[BondoKing]

Hello to all, great forum btw... This is my first post so let me introduce myself to you all... I am a bodyman/painter... I have been doing this for 13 years with a 6 year layoff in the middle.. Anyways of all these years, I have used Mirror glaze products exclusively... When I am finished with a paint job, I cut with 2000 Nikkens paper ( relabeled Unigrit) and buff with Diamond cut compound... Does not matter if I use the wool pad or marron w7000 pad, then the Dual Action cleaner polish and yellow foam pad w8000 and then the swirl remover and w9000 foam pad...

Heres the worst part... After doing all of this the vehicles look great, but after a few washes and weeks they dont anymore... The problem I have been told is that Mirror Glaze is made for detailers and not really for bodyshops... A system like Norton makes, 3M or Presta is much more suited for what I do, as the mefuiars products are full of glaze and this is why my sand scratches or swirls from compounding show back up after a short time... I have also been told that the other lines dont have near as much glaze in them

Is this true??? I tried 3M this summer and thought it sucked compared to Mirror glaze, but I have got to get away from these swirls and scratches reappearing a month down the road... I know wax will make a large difference, but when you do the work I do, there is no wax going on that for a while

Someone please tell me I dont have to switch brands, and just to clarify I am in no way bad mouthing Mirror Glaze... Heck I have stuck with it for this long.. but the only thing my retailer tells me is to use wax.....and that wont work

I will post some pics of a black overall I did 5 weeks ago... Looked sweet then, not so great now.. I will get those up later tonight

Thanks

BK

[Pete-FWA]

BK, I'm anxious to see your "before and after" pictures. With those and more details about what products and pads you used with what machine(s), many on the forum can help you figure out what's not working right for you. I have a guess on the sanding scratches already, theories on some other things, but let's see.

Most of the jobbers in our area pushed 3M. Many people told me that Meguiar's was all "filler oils" and that I'd never remove any marks with it. At the same time, our work garnered rave reviews. People were shocked to find it was from Meguiar's.

Next, I was told Meguiar's was cost prohibitive. "Have you seen the prices for 3M?", I'd ask. Between the two of them (vast 3M experience here, too), I used less product with Meguiar's. Usually, their products were in line or even LESS than 3M, thereby saving us money.

Which 3M products do you use? Their original Perfect-It Foam Polishing Pad Glaze leaves a very nice gloss and it goes on fairly easily. Perfect-It III Machine Glaze tended to leave wads and clumps on the paint. It also dried hard on a polish pad and was a bear to remove without hacking the pad. Sure, it dusted a bit less than the original, but I'd take a bag of dust over wads and rough results.

Most of the "pros" who said to use 3M did it all in 2, maybe 3 steps after sanding.
1. Compound with wool
2. Foam pad Perfect-It glaze
Some of them would then go a third step and put on Hand Glaze to make the Foam Polishing Pad Glaze last a bit longer.

The glaze looked great this way, but washed out and left the swirls from compounding. That FPPG does little to level out the marks.

As far as wax to remove swirls: some of them can cover the marks for a while, but doing your best to REMOVE them is key. By the time you wax, you're not hiding anything, just sealing in the goodness.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Sand scratches

Hi BondoKing,

Welcome to Meguiar's Online!

Originally posted by BondoKing
Heres the worst part... After doing all of this the vehicles look great, but after a few washes and weeks they dont anymore...

If sanding marks are showing up, you're not completely removing them. This is technique related.

If swirls are showing up, you're either not using correct technique or you're not following up with a final machine polish with a dual action polisher.

The problem I have been told is that Mirror Glaze is made for detailers and not really for bodyshops...

Really, who told you this? Did you get this information from another forum?

Mirror Glaze started in body shops and on assembly lines of most of the car manufactures starting in the 1920's until today. We didn't start making a consumer line until 1973.

A system like Norton makes, 3M or Presta is much more suited for what I do, as the mefuiars products are full of glaze and this is why my sand scratches or swirls from compounding show back up after a short time... I have also been told that the other lines dont have near as much glaze in them. Is this true???

Where are you getting all the misinformation?

I tried 3M this summer and thought it sucked compared to Mirror glaze, but I have got to get away from these swirls and scratches reappearing a month down the road... I know wax will make a large difference, but when you do the work I do, there is no wax going on that for a while

Someone please tell me I dont have to switch brands, and just to clarify I am in no way bad mouthing Mirror Glaze... Heck I have stuck with it for this long.. but the only thing my retailer tells me is to use wax.....and that wont work

I will post some pics of a black overall I did 5 weeks ago... Looked sweet then, not so great now.. I will get those up later tonight

Thanks

BK

List your steps, as in

Step 1 product/pad/machine
Step 2 product/pad/machine
Step 3 product/pad/machine

[BondoKing]

Really, who told you this? Did you get this information from another forum?

No I did not get this from another forum.. I have friends in the paint industry... some are chemist, some are reps etc... This is who told me these things... and even the guy behind the counter at my local mirror glaze store... not that any guy behind any paint related counter is all that knowledgeable.... Even the guy who has been there 35 yrs ( he always brags how long he has worked for mirror glaze) never has definitive answers, so I ask those who deal with fresh paint and daily buffing of such

Where are you getting all the misinformation?

Same people although I don't know how incorrect they are at telling me mirror glaze has more glaze in it then say Presta?

List your steps, as in

Certainly again I will list them

When I am finished with a paint job, I cut with 2000 Nikkens paper ( relabeled Unigrit) and buff with Diamond cut compound... Does not matter if I use the wool pad or maroon w7000 pad, then the Dual Action cleaner polish and yellow foam pad w8000 and then the swirl remover and w9000 foam pad...

If it makes it easier to read then like this
1. Diamond Cut Compound/ Maroon foam w7000 pad or Wool Pad they sell at the MG store/ variable speed buffer they also sold me/ wash vehicle or part

2.Dual Action Cleaner Polish/Yellow foam w8000 pad/variable speed buffer/ wash or clean all over with Final Inspection

3. Swirl Remover/ Tan foam w9000/variable speed buffer/ wash


Again I will say this to the administrator and to all, I am not ragging on the products, just trying to understand why this happens...

Over the years I painted in a super clean booth just to try and minimize the amount of buffing for nibs and what not... I have recently moved and no longer have my "shop".. At the present moment I will be painting in a garage and my work will have to buffed to remove nibs etc....


I am not a newbie to the paint game, so I understand that if you don't remove sand scratches they will show later, but the hazing shortly after the glaze wears down is what has me so bothered and brings back all the old memories...

Again I have been told that due to the high content of glaze you think the scratches are gone when in fact they are hidden because of the product... Then when they show up looks like you did not know what you were doing and I am stuck holding the I don't know what happened expression

Here are some pics of it right now... I don't have any of it when it was finished... I don't always take pics, I should, but I dont... I have pics of it covered in bodywork though

BTW someone ask me what clear I was using... That is insignificant... It does not matter if you are working on factory clear, PPG, SW,Dupont,Matrix,SPI etc... They will all buff to some degree differently, and yes some clears are almost impossible to buff, but the products are made to work on all the aboves clears etc..

BK

Only one pic per post??

[BondoKing]

One more pic... Is there a way to add more than one?? Surely there is

[BondoKing]

another one OOps, forgot to add that one, and it wont let me now

[BondoKing]

Just a few products I use... Notice the pads at the top... I have many more of those sam MG pads

[rusty bumper]

Originally posted by BondoKing
Only one pic per post??

Here's some handy info that shows you how to upload photos into your gallery space, and how to link them to your posts.....


How to put pictures into your posts



These helpful links show you how to prepare you photos for uploading & posting....

Tutorials on how to crop, resize, upload and insert your pictures into your messages

How-to Crop your photos before uploading them to your gallery

How to resize your photos using Easy Thumbnails - Free software!

Step-by-Step Picture-Posting HOW TO

[BondoKing]

Thanks for the tip bro, here are the pics reduced and now we cann all see them at once...

BTW I am going to wait to touch this truck tomorrow untill I have some answers, no sense in doing something again..

BK

[Mike Phillips]

If you want a 100% swirl free finish in any light, then your last step procedure is going to have to be re-polishing each panel with something else besides the rotary buffer.

This is one of the main reasons for the popularity in the dual action polisher. It's able to remove light scratches without leaving any swirls like the rotary.

I would recommend investing in a dual action polisher and then re-polishing each panel using our M80 Speed Glaze with our W-8006 foam polishing pad.

If you pay attention to this thread,

http://www.showcargarage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4

I'm going to document each step with photos, plus after each step I thoroughly wiped down the finish 2, 3, and even 4 times using a 50/50 mixture of Isopropyl alcohol and water to insure I had removed any ingredient from Meguiar's products that may have hid or filled in any scratches or swirls, and then I pulled the car out into direct sunlight, stood on a ladder and took multiple pictures at different angles to show there were no swirls in the finish and thus no fillers or glazes hiding imperfections.

I've discussed to death the topic of fillers on this forum in the past and it really comes down to this, the enemy calls them fillers and we call it a lubricating film that prevents the diminishing abrasives from scouring the finish.


From this thread,

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8331

Do a search using the word fillers and select Search Titles Only in the search preference option.


The word, fillers is a word used by the uniformed on other forums. Don't let yourself get trapped into that mindset. Remember there's lot of self-proclaimed guru's out there that simply copy and paste what they read and in essence act like parrots repeating information they never generated. The problem with this is that some of the information is good, while some of it is bad.

Meguiar's 80's series is water-based, correctly used they remove defects, not merely fill them in.

Here are two threads that discuss swirls and the use of the rotary buffer because in the end, in order to produce and maintain a 100% rotary buffer swirl, and cobweb swirl free finish, you're always going to have to apply something to it unless you part the car in a museum. This is true for our products and any companies products because just the act of touching a car whether by washing or wiping you can instill fine scratches that will show up in bright light like the sun.

Need Help! - How to Avoid Holograms?


How to Avoid Swirls and Holograms?

[Mike Phillips]

Read through this thread, you can probably start where it lists M80 Speed Glaze.

Using the G-100 to remove swirls with the Professional Line

[BondoKing]

Thanks for the info Mike, It just plain ***** that I have been misled by the Mirror glaze store itself over the years, and I have never seen one bodyman say that you need something other than our trusty rotary buffers we swear by... Learned allot tonight.... Oh Darn another tool I will just have to buy

BK

Edit: Couldnt I just use one of my DA's, maybe the one I color sand with, and buy the smaller 6.5" pads for it??

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by BondoKing
Thanks for the info Mike, It just plain ***** that I have been misled by the Mirror glaze store itself over the years, and I have never seen one bodyman say that you need something other than our trusty rotary buffers we swear by... Learned allot tonight.... Oh Darn another tool I will just have to buy

BK

I called on body shops for years and worked with a lot of jobber store and too tell you the truth, there's just too much to know...

Meguiar's started selling a 6" foam pad with a fixed backing plate and a 5/16 stud for use in body shops with the air powered D.A. sander for finesse/final polishing back in the 70's or early 80's, but even then, it's an extra step that most people didn't know about, and most shops that knew about it didn't want to invest in the time and labor to do for the customer as there typically isn't any more profit in this extra step.

[Pete-FWA]

BK,

Sure, you can use the air powered DA, but turn down your speed a bit. These electrics that most use here turn at slower OPM than most air DA's wide open. I use pneumatic as I have a complement of body and paint tools from my days as a shop owner.

The reason I'd asked about what type of material you sprayed was simply out of curiosity.

[Superior Shine]

I have color sanded many many cars mainly for show and competition and for years I had a problem with using #85 for completely removing sanding scratches- BECAUSE I WAS DOING IT WRONG.

... I have also been told that the other lines dont have near as much glaze in them

Diamond cut has lubricating oil in it that fills in the sanding marks and gives you the appearance of having removed all the scratches. Keep in mind the oils (sometimes incorrectly called “fillers”) are there to lubricate and not fill in/hide the scratches.

I personally believe that diamond cut isn’t aggressive enough to use to buff out color sanding marks quickly. I have found myself in the past using another brand of compound then returning to Meguiars products for final polishing. I think Meguiars needs something more aggressive in their arsenal (rumor has it something more aggressive will be added to Meguiars line up in the near future).

Awsome results can be achieved with #85. The key to using #85 is to buff out the lightest scratches possible. This means following your initial sanding with a finer grade so you don’t have to cut/buff as much.

While using #85 make sure you clean the pad often to reduce the amount of oil loading up on the pad. Second, follow Mike’s advice and after buffing a section use an alcohol-water 50/50 mix or Meguiars detailers line window cleaner to clean the oils from the finish to check your work. Mist a little on the paint and wipe it dry with a soft cloth to check it.

Follow the rotary work as Mikes advises with the use of the appropriate product and pad with a G100 or similar for the final polish.