Do you use Clay?

[gb387]

Originally posted by Tom Weed
Just my 2 cents...

I started using cclay last year and although it's costly, I don't think I would want to do without it now, as it really preps the surface well and saves you time.

Tom

I like to use it once a year, after the summer/bug season/sap season/anyother baked on junk! I wash my car a couple times a week but no matter how much you wash or how much wax is on your paint you are still going to get bonded contaminates.

There is a night and day difference after you clay the paint is smooth as glass! Well worth the cost for a once a year step!

[MichaelM]

Instead of using clay, you should give Meguiar's Professional Surface Preparation ...a try.

Not to be picky but I don't see any surface prep products in your list but rather compounds and polishes. The products you listed were designed for removal and "moisterizing" of clear coat in various degrees, not removal of bonded contamenants, tar, road paint, etc. The right tool for the right job makes work easier.

[Buellwinkle]

If I'm going to be buffing a car with a rotary using a medium level polish and then rebuff with a light polish why would I clay? The car comes out perfectly smooth anyway. Don't get me wrong, I use clay on cars I don't intend on buffing so that the contaminants are removed and wax feels smooth.

[buda]

Use of Clay

To provide some background on CLAY.

It originated in Japan. In fact, the company that supposedly holds a US Patent on clay imports it from Japan to this day.

It was developed to remove the black streaks that appeared on white and light car finishes that were the result of the extensive air pollution in Japan that landed on these cars during the rain. The Japanese are very anal about appearances, especially of their cars and they needed a way to quickly eliminate this unsightly contamination.

When it came to the USA it was an immediate answer to paint overspray.

Then as it was used more and more detailers found it was great to remove the often invisible and not even feelable contamination on the paint surface. The contamination that you could only feel by putting your fingers into a cigarette cellophone wrapper and rubbing on the finish of a car. Which, by the way, is a great way to demonstrate to the customer the need to clay the car.

The big question that comes up is how to sell it. It is my contention that if I came to a detail shop and they were going to buff, polish and wax my car, I would expect that you would take off this contamination as part of the process. If you sold me on the buff, polish and wax and then tried to sell me something more that would "dramatically improve the finish" of my car, I would immediately think that you should have done this in the first place.

As I tell detailers all the time. If you think the car needs claying then include it in the price and tell the customer when quoting the price that you are doing this, unlike a lot of other detail shops. Then use the cellophone test.

This is why I do not think you should post prices for anything, just know your hourly rate and charge based on that rate x the hours to do the car, based on what you think it needs and tell the customer what you are going to do and why and then quoute the price.

Clay is no longer expensive . You can buy 8 oz bricks or 2- 4oz pads for as little as $9.95 and no more than $14.95. To pay more is overpaying and overcharging.

And, you do not need a "special" liquid as lubrication you can use water and Ivory type hand soap. No cleaners as they have solvents that will breakdown the clay.

Hope this helps you understand clay.

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

[probegt]

I use clay sometimes. Like others have posted, I can use cleaners and polishes and get the same smooth contaminant surface. It depends on what conditions the paint is. If I need light cleaning then I might consider, but if has been abused and in need of a deep cleaning, that will do it for me.

[buda]

8,000 & 10,000 Grit Sandpaper

Anyone ever used a nano-fine sandpaper that is 8,000 or 10,000 grit. It is super micro fine and can be used in lieu of compound or clay.

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

[SingingSabre]

Re: Use of Clay

Originally posted by buda
And, you do not need a "special" liquid as lubrication you can use water and Ivory type hand soap. No cleaners as they have solvents that will breakdown the clay.

Hope this helps you understand clay.

Interesting post.

But why are you using ivory soap? Using the car wash water as lubricant works find. All the quick detailers don't have solvents that break anything down but the bonds between grime and paint. The polymer clay is impervious to this, as it is made to extract said grime from said paint.

Anyone ever used a nano-fine sandpaper that is 8,000 or 10,000 grit. It is super micro fine and can be used in lieu of compound or clay.

But why remove paint when you don't need to?

[buda]

Ivory Soap & Nano Grit Sandpaper

Mr Heinlein:

Thank you for your reply to which I will reply in course:

1. The point was to let you detailers know you do not have to purchase a "special" lubricating fluid to use with clay. It is sufficient to use a hand soap and water. I am not absolutely sure but I believe that the carwash shampoos that you would use to wash a car with might contain some mild cleaning solvents to strip the road film off the body of the car. These solvents would breakdown the clay. In Japan where the clay originated, they do not use anything but water.

2. It is clear you have never seen or felt a piece of 8,000 or 10,000 grit sandpaper?? This is much finer than any compound you would use to buff a car. You certainly are not taking off any paint with sandpaper this fine. The compounds and buffing pad take off more clear coat (rather than paint since clear is paint) than this sandpaper.

So, in answer to my original question you obviously have not seen or used this nano sandpaper?

Regards
Bud Abraham

[SingingSabre]

Re: Ivory Soap & Nano Grit Sandpaper

Originally posted by buda
Mr Heinlein:

So formal! I'm not Mr. Heinlen, though. That's just a quote from one of his books.

1. The point was to let you detailers know you do not have to purchase a "special" lubricating fluid to use with clay. It is sufficient to use a hand soap and water. I am not absolutely sure but I believe that the carwash shampoos that you would use to wash a car with might contain some mild cleaning solvents to strip the road film off the body of the car. These solvents would breakdown the clay. In Japan where the clay originated, they do not use anything but water.

But some waters can be hard, some can be soft, and there's many variations inbetween the two. "Special" lubricants can enhance the effectiveness of the clay, providing a better lubricated surface to more safely remove bonded contaminants.

The cleaning solvents you mentioned in the car wash shampoo would only increase the effectiveness and efficiency of the clay while providing more lubricating qualities than plain water.

2. It is clear you have never seen or felt a piece of 8,000 or 10,000 grit sandpaper?? This is much finer than any compound you would use to buff a car. You certainly are not taking off any paint with sandpaper this fine. The compounds and buffing pad take off more clear coat (rather than paint since clear is paint) than this sandpaper.

So, in answer to my original question you obviously have not seen or used this nano sandpaper?

Sandpaper removes paint. Sandpaper does not have diminishing abrasives. M83 has diminishing abrasives. So does M80, M09, etc.

My point is that no matter how fine the sandpaper, you're removing more paint than you would be if you used a mild paint cleaner/polish. There have been tests posted in other threads where there was no measureable change in clear coat thickness after using M80. This seems quite a bit gentler than sandpaper. Even if it's nanosandpaper.

Clay. Car wash shampoo. Quick detailers. Those are the safest bets for mostly everyone, in my humble opinion.

[buda]

Sorry to mistake your name.

I am not going to argue with you about this issue. If you want to use a "special lubricant" go for it. As one of the major importers of clay from Japan we have always recommended it be used with water and hand soap. No one has ever complained.


I have no idea what you are referring to, but I do know that the 8,000 grit and 10,000 grit sandpapers are much less aggressive than any compound. If you have never seen this paper which comes from Japan then you are unable to make any conclusion about whether it is or is not too aggressive.

But, again, don't use it if you think it is too aggressive.

Regards
Bud Abraham

[SingingSabre]

Originally posted by buda
I am not going to argue with you about this issue. If you want to use a "special lubricant" go for it. As one of the major importers of clay from Japan we have always recommended it be used with water and hand soap. No one has ever complained.


I have no idea what you are referring to, but I do know that the 8,000 grit and 10,000 grit sandpapers are much less aggressive than any compound. If you have never seen this paper which comes from Japan then you are unable to make any conclusion about whether it is or is not too aggressive.

I don't mean to argue, I just can't see where you're coming from on a few points.

1. Meguiar's diminishing abrasives are an amazing technology which uses abrasives that break down into smaller and smaller components, eventually ending up as a polish.

Sandpaper doesn't break down, no matter how fine the grit.

I don't see how something that doesn't get progressively finer is better to use than something that does.

2. Why would you use handsoap and water over a wash shampoo?

The wash shampoo is made to lubricate a wash mitt/brush/sponge/etc. over a painted surface. This would facilitate clay greatly.

Handsoap is meant to strip oils off of skin which, in the end, dries it up. This just seems detrimental to the paint maintainence process.

[the other pc]

If I may add my $0.02 worth,

Using car wash shampoo like Meguiar's Gold Class works well for claying because its high lubricity makes the job easy, it's designed for paint care so it's chemically compatible with the finish, it doesn't adversely affect the clays I've used (it's a gentle soap, AFAK the only "solvent" involved is the water you add), it rinses clean, it's cheaper than hand soap and you're going to cover the car with it while washing anyway.

Sandpaper, no matter how fine, will remove paint. That's what sandpaper does. But that's what compounds and cleaners do too. They just do it differently and, more importantly, you use them differently.

The material removal rates and final surface finish characteristics associated with cutting chemicals (for the sake of discussion that's what I'll call any compound, cleaner or polish with abrasive particulates) of various types are determined by a number of variables. Particulate size, material and structure, the method of application, hand, orbital, rotary, applied pressure, machine speed, applicator material, carrier lubricity, density and surface tension, chemical volume, etc all affect the outcome.

The same can be said for abrasive sheets. It should be no surprise that applying heavy cut compounds with wool pads and a one-and-a-half horsepower rotary buffer will remove material faster than wetsanding by hand with ultra fine abrasive sheets. Similarly, applying a high lubricity polish with ultra fine diminishing abrasives (like #80 Speed Glaze) by hand with a foam pad will remove less paint than any available abrasive sheet driven with a Dynabrade air sander.

Abrasive sheets and cutting chemicals are both tools. Either can achieve outstanding results when employed skillfully. Either can prove disastrous if misused.

Clay too has its own set of functional characteristics. A particularly useful trait that differentiates it from either abrasive sheets or cutting chemicals is its tendency to aggressively abrade only those surface contaminants that project above the lubricating liquid film while removing vastly less or none of the surface material.


PC.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: 8,000 & 10,000 Grit Sandpaper

Originally posted by buda
Anyone ever used a nano-fine sandpaper that is 8,000 or 10,000 grit. It is super micro fine and can be used in lieu of compound or clay.

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

Bud,

We don't like to teach people to sand their car's paint to remove above surface bonded contaminants when the intelligent alternative is detailing clay. Each Saturday we demonstrate this and it is so, so easy that even a child can do it.

Anytime you bring an abrasive against the finish, the potential is there to instill a scratch or scratches. Meguiar's has been teaching the philosophy of

"Always use the least aggressive product to get the job done"

In keeping with this philosophy, detailing clay is less aggressive than sanding paper. It's also KISS, Keep it Simple Simon. We don't want to make detailing a persons car any more complicated than it has to be.

Detailing clay is fairly bubba-proof and readily available. The sandpapers you're talking about are not.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by buda
Sorry to mistake your name.

I am not going to argue with you about this issue. Regards
Bud Abraham

No one is going to argue with anyone on this forum or they will asked to leave. We don't mind you popping in and sharing your wealth of knowledge Bud, but this is a forum more or less dedicated towards helping people get the best result from their time, money and efforts using Meguiar's products.

We don't sell the nano-sanding papers you're talking about and even if we did, we would still recommend using clay to remove above surface contaminants and a quick detailer to lubricate the surface, it's a proven combination that works beautifully and anyone can produce professional results with.

We also offer our Nikken Finishing papers up th #3000 grit which by most standards is very fine, but we would never recommend this to enthusiasts or professionals when detailing clay is the intelligent alternative.

Does your business, Detail Plus Systems use sandpaper to remove above surface contaminants instead of clay? Is that a recommended procedure?

[buda]

The abrasives used in compounds are either silica (do not breakdown when used) or aluminum oxide (breakdown when used).

The best compounds have a combination of both silica and aluminum oxide although some chemical companies do make compounds with with aluminum oxide only, why I do not know.

There is nothing unique about abrasives that break down, aluminum oxide, available to any chemical company.

Hand soap does not have solvents as you describe that is why they are hand and body soaps.

As for the sandpaper you are making assumptions based on conventional wisdom about sandpaper. This paper is not at all like the traditional sandpaper you are describing.

But again let us not argue.

Bud Abraham