Swirl Mark Defeat

[Daboy85]

Hey everyone

I'm new to the forum, after spending the last two weeks on here I figured I would join and ask some questions. I own a 2011 Camaro and a 1998 Mustang. The Camaro is black and the Mustang is Yellow. I had to have my car fixed (Camaro) and they were so nice to put it through a wash for me without me knowing. And I mean It was nice of them but I drove over to the carwash and it had brushes. Now I have swirls. As for the Mustang it's swirled pretty bad from neglect from the previous owner. I figured I would try to fix the Mustang first and once I got my technique down I'd attempt the Camaro. The problem I am having is I've used Ultimate Compound, SwirlX, and Mothers Cleaner Wax. I've tired these products with a foam applicator, a microfiber applicator, and an Orbital Buffer with a Foam pad and a Microfiber pad. All in different areas on the car. It looks exactly the same. Just smooth. I also tried SwirlX on the door-jam of the Camaro, It seems like it's created a hazy finish and made more scratches than actually fixing it. I don't know what Im doing wrong. Any words of advice. I don't have the money for a DA and I would like to do it by hand.

Also I have done the proper technique of cleaning the car (wash, clay, wash, dry)

HELP!!!! Thanks!

-Tommy

[ffboy]

Re: Swirl Mark Defeat

Did you work the cleaners/polish into the paint or applied it like a wax? Depending on the degree of swirling or scratching or paint hardness, it may take a bit more effort or technique to remove swirls without inducing marring on the paint ot proper product combinations, even with an orbital polisher.

[Evan.J]

Re: Swirl Mark Defeat

OK I found an article that you can take a look at I know it helped me when I was just starting out and I was doing everything by hand.

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?7011-How-To-Remove-Swirls-By-Hand

[Daboy85]

I rubbed but I'll admit I did it like wax. I used maybe a 7 in pressure and once it felt like it cured, I wiped it off.

[Daboy85]

Also I've read conflicting stories, does swirlx have an abrasive? I know ultimate compound does but I'm lost lol. I've been masking them with NXT wax but I want them gone not masked

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Swirl Mark Defeat

If you're going to be working by hand it's important that you use the correct applicator, proper technique, and take your time. First off, put away any cotton terry cloth towels or applicators you may have - forget about them. This material will more often than not create fine swirls and haze regardless what product you use with it.

Second, when using paint cleaners like Ultimate Compound, SwirlX, ScratchX 2.0 etc you never want to let them dry. You gain nothing by letting them dry and they just become hard to remove. All of them, as well as most of our competitors similar products, contain some sort of abrasive and so they'll only do their thing when being worked against the paint. The process, in theory, really isn't all that different from using sandpaper on a piece of wood, albeit at an incredibly finer "grit" if you will. It's an abrasive being rubbed against a surface in order to remove defects - it's the ONLY way you're going to make defect removal happen. But the applicator can be even more abrasive than the liquid product, hence the recommendation to stay away from cotton terry cloth. Your best bet is to stick with soft foam wax applicators for applying any liquid product to the paint.

It's also important that you work in small areas at a time when working by hand. If you go any larger than about 1' x 1' you just can't put enough energy into the paint to remove the defects. On the flip side, you never want to scrub the paint for an extended period of time in a very small area (like a couple of inches square) because then you'll be over concentrating your efforts and can easily rub through the clear coat with virtually any product. You also don't want to be pressing down on the applicator with your fingertips as this will create high pressure points that can scour the paint, causing a really nasty looking set of swirl marks in the paint. Keep the length of your fingers firmly against the pad, work in circular motions or straight strokes, which ever works best for you as it really doesn't matter to the paint, and apply firm pressure when doing so. You should work the product pretty vigorously for several seconds or until it becomes a thin, translucent but still wet film on the paint, then wipe off before it dries. Depending on how hard the paint is, and how severe the defects are, it may take as many as 3 or 5 applications to really see some results. Correcting an entire car by hand is hard work, no way around it. It certainly can be done, but it's not going to be easy. Of course, there's no law that says you have to correct the whole car in one day. You may want to tackle just the hood one day, and carry on from there on subsequent sessions. If you are going to work just one area a day, do all steps to that area, finishing off with a coat of wax.

[Daboy85]

Now is it true using abrasives on the paint create swirls. But in a fine, more organized fashion? As well as it softens the paint for polish?

[ffboy]

Re: Swirl Mark Defeat

In microscopic levels, paint is not smooth like what we see on a clayed, cleaned/corrected, polished and waxed car. Abrasives may create swirls, only if it is improperly used and with improper techniques, and if some steps are missing like further refining of previous steps.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Swirl Mark Defeat

Now is it true using abrasives on the paint create swirls. But in a fine, more organized fashion? As well as it softens the paint for polish?

Yes and no. It really depends on the abrasives and how they're used, not only in the formulation of the product but also in the application process. It also depends on how delicate the paint is. Products like Ultimate Compound, which is fairly aggressive, and even M105, which is our most aggressive liquid, usually will leave a completely defect free finish when used properly. On extremely delicate paint, or when used in a very aggressive manner, they may leave some fine micro marring that is easily removed with a finer liquid used in a less aggressive way. There is no "softening" of the paint, however, as this is simply impossible with a modern, catalyzed clear coat.

For example: if you're using Ultimate Compound by hand and your technique is poor, then odds are you're going to be creating pressure points as your fingertips press through the applicator pad. Adjusting this technique, but using the exact same liquid and pad, will alleviate this marring. In that case we can definitely say the technique is causing the problem, not the liquid.

For example (2): you need to remove some severe defects, like sanding marks, from the paint so you grab M105, a wool pad, and a rotary buffer. While this process will quickly remove the sanding marks, odds are the overall process is going to leave at least some level of hologramming behind - it's just part of the process in most cases. It is generally accepted that this initial compounding step needs to be followed with a less aggressive step. So was it the M105 that caused the holograms? Alone, no - it was the combination of pad, tool speed, pad angle, etc. In fact, using M105 instead of an "old school" diminishing abrasive product like M84 would actually dramatically reduce the amount of holograms and, in some cases, prevent them from forming at all.

For example (3): you grab an old "rocks in a bottle" liquid or paste that was developed back in the days of single stage lacquers and use it on a modern clear coat, and odds are you're going to create all kinds of swirls, even if you use a pretty gentle application process. When we do demos at Barrett-Jackson and other events, we need to have fairly messed up paint to demo on. Let's face it, it's not terribly impressive to do a demo when the paint is perfect to begin with! And if we're doing several demos a day, what do you after that first demo when you've removed all the defects? We grab a certain product from one of our competitors, apply it according to the directions on the container, and basically rip the clear to shreds. (well, it just looks really nasty) Now we have something to correct again! In reality, when used to remove a whole bunch of random defects, a product like this will actually create the finer, more organized defects that you asked about. We like to call it a "more predictable" defect. They're still not pretty, but at least they're consistent and therefore pretty straightforward and easy to remove. Generally we talk about this when wet sanding as it's really easy to avoid when using liquid abrasives - just select a more modern product!

The abrasive technology used in products like M105, D151, Ultimate Compound, ScratchX 2.0 etc is such that it allows for a very fast cut (product dependent, of course) while still leaving a very nice finish that is often LSP ready. But there are so many technique variables that can conspire against this.

For example (4): our Customer Care Center routinely gets calls from people complaining that our ScratchX 2.0 product actually created a bunch of fine scratches in their paint. Yes, it removed the larger, isolated scratch they wanted to remove, but now the area where they applied the product looks all swirled up. It is now almost instinctive for our guys to ask if that person used a terry cloth applicator to apply ScratchX 2.0, and the answer is almost always "yes". So the recommendation is to go back over the same spot with the same product, but switch to a foam wax applicator pad. Why? Because there is nothing in ScratchX 2.0 that will cause this sort of fine scratches, but a terry cloth towel sure can, and will. So when the customer goes back over the area with the proper applicator pad and the exact same product, then often call back to say that they now have a spot that is much shinier than the rest of the car, and do they now have to do the whole car. Change the application process, change the result.

[Daboy85]

Re: Swirl Mark Defeat

Thanks for all the advice, So I went to my local wal-mart to look for some Ultimate Wax, and what do you think I see? A Dual Action Polisher!(MEG BTW) So I went ahead and picked it up. I got a brownish black pad and a yellow pad. What are the difference??

[ffboy]

Re: Swirl Mark Defeat

I believe the yellow pad is for buffing/polishing, while the black one (the softest) is for finishing and applying waxes/pure polishes.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Swirl Mark Defeat

I believe the yellow pad is for buffing/polishing, while the black one (the softest) is for finishing and applying waxes/pure polishes.

Exactly right. The yellow pad should be used with a liquid paint cleaner like Ultimate Compound for removing defects such as swirls, stains, etchings, fine scratches, etc. Generally you would use this combo at speed 5 on the tool and apply moderate to heavy pressure on the pad, depending on hardness of paint, severity of defects, etc. The black pad should be used to apply wax or a finishing polish, at a slower speed and with less pressure.

Read through D/A Buffing 101 - An Introduction to the G110v2 and similar tools before getting started - it should answer virtually all of your questions regarding the process.

[Daboy85]

Thanks guys. I have to read up. It's still in the box I was afraid to use it I've heard horror stories about polishers creating scratches and holograms.

[ffboy]

Re: Swirl Mark Defeat

Thise dual action polishers are very user friendly... The horror stories you must have read were from rotary or high speed buffers. Those are completely different animals to D/a polishers like megs g110/220v2 or griots ot porter cable. The only real way you can damage the paint with those is when you buff it using sandpaper as your "polishing pad" or if you throw your D/A polisher towards your car. Just keep on reading on them, or watch videos from youtube, there are lots of it there.

Rotary polishers are direct drive, D/A polishers have a counter balance or clutch mechanism. So when too much weight is applied on it, the head stops spinning. Now do the same with a rotary buffer, then you might as well say goodbye to your paint and prepare to shell out a couple of dollars for repairs.

[Daboy85]

Re: Swirl Mark Defeat

I was reading your write up and I came accross this:

This thread is AWESOME!!

I received by DAP a couple of weeks back but wanted to keep researching on hw to use it first. This thread makes me save a lot of time researching!

One thing I had no idea was that there was black pad available. When I ordered the DAP, I tried to make sure I also ordered all the ccessories. I'm glad I read this before using.

I truly appreciate you putting the time in writing up this instructional/guidline Michael!!

Is there a thread somewhere that steps you through all the necessary stages of washing/correcting/waxing? I'm not talking about full detail, but something that tells you the order of doing it and what products can be used for each step and the strength of the products listed in order.
Example: (and i'm just making up the

Step 1. Wash car with car shampoo.

Step 2. Use Clay bar
Strength from weakest to strongest:
1. Clay bar A
2. Clay bar b

Step 3. Correct Paint Defects:
Strength from weakest to strongest:
1. M105
2. Swrill-X
3. product XYZ
4. M205
Pads:
1. Burgendy #XYZ
2. Yellow
3. Black

Step 4. Car Wax (sealent or whatever we are doing now, I don't know the correct term)
Strength from weakest to strongest:
1.product a
2. product b


Again, thank you SOOOOOOOOOO MUCH for this thread!!!!!!!!!!

It seems like from the looks of this the black pad is harsher than the yellow pad.