Glass Polishing... deep cleaning

[gb387]

Originally posted by Rio2005
I was told by a Glass Company to try a little CLR to eliminate spots on glass, I was also told, do not polish with a electric polisher and anything with a cutting action in the product as this could result in optics change of glass. I know CLR works well on Shower Doors in my hard water area, have not tried on car yet.

CLR may work but I don't think I would get any on the car itself... I have used it and it is some stinky stuff can't imagine its good for paint, plastic and window seals.

[Hannibal]

So did using the DA remove any scratches?

[everglo]

Sorry for going off on a tangent. Mike, why wouldn't M04 not be more aggressive than 85/84 on paint then? I would think that with larger abrasives it would take longer to break down hence providing more cutting. I'm sure the reason why is in the proprietary formula(s) but if you could explain w/o giving away the farm I'd like to understand this.

If it works that well on glass would the same apply to paint? Does M04 remove water spots from paint whether it's CC or SS better than 84/85? I understand that each paint job is different so 'in general' does it work better?

[Murr1525]

It is not just particle size, but the effort/energy needed to break them down.

The G-100, though a machine, actualy can be less agressive in breaking down the particles than your hand in some situations. And the rotary will always be more agressive.

The particles in the #4 are going to need some force to break down, and the G-100 isnt meant to apply a lot of force.. this is why it is extremely safe. You hand and rotary can apply more force (though not equal).

[everglo]

Mike, can I get answers to my questions above? Or Tim?

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by everglo
Mike, can I get answers to my questions above? Or Tim?

Yes you can, sorry this was somehow over looked, I guess that's a sign of a busy forum and busy people.

Originally posted by everglo
Sorry for going off on a tangent. Mike, why wouldn't M04 not be more aggressive than 85/84 on paint then? I would think that with larger abrasives it would take longer to break down hence providing more cutting. I'm sure the reason why is in the proprietary formula(s) but if you could explain w/o giving away the farm I'd like to understand this.

If it works that well on glass would the same apply to paint? Does M04 remove water spots from paint whether it's CC or SS better than 84/85? I understand that each paint job is different so 'in general' does it work better?

The short answer is "No".

Just because a product has diminishing abrasives that are larger in size doesn't automatically mean they are more effective on different materials.

Glass is very, very different from paint.

When polishing the gunk that builds up on paint your cutting the gunk but not the glass.

When cleaning, or removing defects from paint you're cutting or abrading the paint but you're doing it in a controlled method that while it's removing defects, (removing paint), it's also leaving it defect-free or polished.

I can't go into all the different types of diminishing abrasives our chemists have at their disposal depending upon what they want to accomplish with a formula, but abrasives are not as simple as bigger means more aggressive.

In this glass polishing example, we're using one specific feature from from a particular type of diminishing abrasive used in the M04 formula and it is the features of this diminishing abrasive that enables it to cut through and remove the gunk without scratching the glass that makes it effective.

You ask a good question, I hope my answer is sufficient.

In the BIG PICTURE, what's really important is that you are able to remove the gunk and polish the glass.

[Brian Catalano]

Fantastic!

Well, after consulting with Mr. Phillips earlier today, I decided to conduct a little experiment of my own tonight.

My wife and I closed last month on a new (to us) house, out in Corona, CA. With prices rapidly on the rise, we were lucky to find a medium-sized house (by SoCal standards, any way) for a little under market value because of some work that's had to be done.

One of the neglected areas in the house was the master shower. This house was built in 1998, so it's not terribly old... but with the really hard water I had 8 years of hard-water buildup to remove. Mike figured I should try some #4 Heavy Cut Cleaner. I then followed up with some NXT Glass Cleaner for good measure. (The bottle of All Purpose Cleaner was hanging out too, but he didn't get used):



As you can see, I've got my work cut out for me. Look at the hard water stains on the glass. Liberal doses of All-Purpose Cleaner with a scotch-brite pad, and NXT Glass cleaner by itself couldn't put a dent in it:





I then went to work. Using an old Meguiar's Ultra Plush Super Terry, I placed a quarter-sized dollop of #4 on it and started gently rubbing. I couldn't believe my eyes as the hard water stains melted away. I can't emphasize how hard I tried and scrubbed over the past few weeks to get this mess off the glass:



Look at how well it removed the hard water mess from the faucet handle. Proof positive that you can use #4 to remove hard water stains from metal surfaces... just be a little more careful as not to scratch the metal:



So about a half-hour later, I was finished. Look how clear the glass is... You can read to labels of the bottles through TWO panes of now-clean glass. Before, all you could see was the outline and color of the bottles:



As Mike also pointed out, not only was the glass completely CLEAN and CLEAR... but look at the incredible reflective surface it left behind. How's this for a reflection shot? (Again, there's that sneaky APC bottle trying to get in on the action):



All in all, my wife and i were completely thrilled to have a clean shower again... with minimal work. This all would have gone much quicker using a microfiber pad on a rotary... but that's okay. These results, again by hand, really impressed us.

Brian

[CELL]

My only concern with using #4 on glass...especially auto glass, is the shine it will leave which will make it harder to see.
Someone pointed out earlier that using something with abrasives in it that leaves a shine can damage the optical clarity of glass.
So, that beautiful shine that jumps out at you might be detremental when inside the car and the windhshield catches a sun glare.
Something to think about.

Someone else also asked....what about Scratch-X.
Would using scratch-x with a DA be effective?

[Tim Lingor]

Originally posted by CELL
My only concern with using #4 on glass...especially auto glass, is the shine it will leave which will make it harder to see.
Someone pointed out earlier that using something with abrasives in it that leaves a shine can damage the optical clarity of glass.
So, that beautiful shine that jumps out at you might be detremental when inside the car and the windhshield catches a sun glare.
Something to think about.

Someone else also asked....what about Scratch-X.
Would using scratch-x with a DA be effective?

Firstly, Meguiar's #4 Heavy Cut Cleaner will clean the glass, and will not scratch it nor make it harder to see through. Glass is VERY hard and unless you are using special glass cleaning compounds, like the ones from the Eastwood Company, you are only removing the contaminants from the surface of the glass.

Secondly, there are a lot of people that are confused when they hear the word abrasives. We are talking about special abrasives that are used for on painted surfaces. Glass and paint are extremely different in terms of hardness. The reason #4 works so well is that it uses a different type of diminishing abrasive that works very well on glass. Using a product like #85 Diamond Cut will not work the same as it uses different diminishing abrasive.

Finally, polishing glass using Mike Phillips' method leaves the glass beautifully clear. It will not remove marring, but it will remove the vast majority of water spots etc. All this will do is help to restore the glass back to an almost new condition, albeit with some marring remaining. Unless you are using special glass cleaning compounds (Eastwood Company) with rotary buffers or sanders, you are not removing any glass.

It is the contaminants on the glass that create reflective/distraction problems. Think of a smear on your eye/sun glasses. The smear will distract you far more than clean glasses.

Tim

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by CELL
My only concern with using #4 on glass...especially auto glass, is the shine it will leave which will make it harder to see.

If we assume window glass starts out 100% clear and shiny, (it looks like that to me when I look at a brand new car), then if it becomes less clear and less shiny over time because some kind of gunk or mineral deposits that build-up on it from repeated exposure to water, (and whatever is in the water), and then you clean and polish it back to 100% clear and shiny, how can it now be harder to see through?

For what it's worth, I've never seen what you've described in my entire life. But if you say it's possible and can explain how, well we're always open to new ideas.

Someone pointed out earlier that using something with abrasives in it that leaves a shine can damage the optical clarity of glass.

Well if you're talking about some other companies abrasives then you could be right; but if you read through any of the forum at all you'll discover one of Meguiar's claims to fame as well as historic landmarks in cleaners and polishes is that ever since 1901 we have been using and pioneering the use of diminishing abrasives in our products. Besides this, maybe you can delve further into an explanation of how a product that makes glass shiny is damaging optical clarity, I mean it's either making the glass clear and shiny or it's not.

This kind of begs the question as to whether you have ever used M04 to polish water spots or other built-up gunk off glass?

So, that beautiful shine that jumps out at you might be detrimental when inside the car and the windshield catches a sun glare. Something to think about.

Excellent hypothetical possibility, something else to think about is you might really like seeing through clear glass again after you've cleaned and polished it.

Someone else also asked....what about Scratch-X.
Would using scratch-x with a DA be effective?

If you re-read the thread, you'll learn that I've already answered this question and/or similar questions about products other than #4 (I think it's on page 1 or 2)

[CELL]

The point of auto glass is to be able to see THRU it, not for it to be reflective.
The last thing I want to see when looking thru my windshield is a major reflection of my interior.
Id rather see the road with nothing else obstructing my view.
It seems to me that using #4 would yes, clean the glass...but also polish it, causing more of a reflective result, and losing its optical clarity.
Wouldnt it be acceptable to go over the glass once or twice with the pro line glass concentrate (dilluted of course)
Or is the pro lines glass concentrate severly lacking in its advertised abilities?
Im just asking out of curiosity as im going to be ordering product this afternoon, so please...dont be defensive
Oh and I looked for an answer to the scratch-x question....on page 2 we have..

Originally posted by LnkPrkSoldier
would any other product work as well? how about scratch x?

And I cant seem to find you answering the question, Mike. Maybe I missed it elsewhere?

[Pete-FWA]

Originally posted by CELL
The point of auto glass is to be able to see THRU it, not for it to be reflective.

It seems to me that using #4 would yes, clean the glass...but also polish it, causing more of a reflective result, and losing its optical clarity.

Perhaps an example from a different angle would help: Have you owned or driven a new vehicle or one with new glass in it? Has the thought ever come to you that you can't see through it because it's too reflective? Does this problem go away through the years as the glass collects gunk?

NOW, with what Mike, Tim, and others including myself have experienced for years is that M04 does NOT cut the glass, it simply removes the bulk of, if not all, contaminants stuck to the glass, increasing the clarity . Using M04 to remove contamination makes the glass clear again.

Glass starts essentially clear and remains this way until something is put on the surface to reduce the clarity.

What reduces the clarity? Dirt, water spots, sap, window tint, scratches

Does M04 scratch auto glass? Not that I've ever experienced

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by CELL
The point of auto glass is to be able to see THRU it, not for it to be reflective.
The last thing I want to see when looking thru my windshield is a major reflection of my interior.
Id rather see the road with nothing else obstructing my view.
It seems to me that using #4 would yes, clean the glass...but also polish it, causing more of a reflective result, and losing its optical clarity.

First, have you ever polished glass with something built-up on it that a glass cleaner won't remove?

Second, Polishing it clean isn't making it any more shiny, clear or reflective than it was when it was new.

Wouldnt it be acceptable to go over the glass once or twice with the pro line glass concentrate (dilluted of course)
Or is the pro lines glass concentrate severly lacking in its advertised abilities?

Your question above is what makes me think you've never cleaned glass with some kind of minearl deposits or gunk built-up on it. At the point you have some kind of film built-up on the glass, a wipe-on glass cleaner isn't going to remove the film.

Our glass cleaners work amazing. But there is a limit to what they can remove.

In an effort to help you understand with pictures, I've quoted Brian from page 3 below, read the words and look at the pictures. I removed some of the words and bolded key sentences to aid you.

Originally posted by Brian Catalano

One of the neglected areas in the house was the master shower. This house was built in 1998, so it's not terribly old... but with the really hard water

I had 8 years of hard-water buildup to remove.



As you can see, I've got my work cut out for me. Look at the hard water stains on the glass. Liberal doses of All-Purpose Cleaner with a scotch-brite pad, and NXT Glass cleaner by itself couldn't put a dent in it:





I then went to work. Using an old Meguiar's Ultra Plush Super Terry, I placed a quarter-sized dollop of #4 on it and started gently rubbing.

I couldn't believe my eyes as the hard water stains melted away. I can't emphasize how hard I tried and scrubbed over the past few weeks to get this mess off the glass:



So about a half-hour later, I was finished. Look how clear the glass is... You can read to labels of the bottles through TWO panes of now-clean glass. Before, all you could see was the outline and color of the bottles:



All in all, my wife and i were completely thrilled to have a clean shower again...

Brian [/B]

Im just asking out of curiosity as im going to be ordering product this afternoon, so please...dont be defensive

I'm not being defensive or offensive, I am doing my best to try to explain something as easily and as simple as I can to help you understand.

I would ask you this question again however,

Have you ever cleaned or polished any glass with with a build-up of heavy mineral deposts or any other type of gunk on the glass?

Yes or no?

If so, what was your method of removing the film build-up?

By the way, here's a link to a spell checker.

Free Spell Checker for Internet Explorer!

[Murr1525]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
No this product won't work to remove gunk that has built-up on the surface of window glass because it uses a microscopic diminishing abrasive, what works is the larger diminishing abrasive found in the M04 Heavy Cut Cleaner. If possible, shake up a bottle of both of these products and then pour some of each out and feel them between your fingers, you will notice right away the difference in they type of diminishing abrasive each uses.

Mike

This was posted by Mike, it covers pretty much every product, including ScratchX.

This sort of procedure, using M04, would be for after glass cleaners, and clay, dont work. At some point, if the gunk is on thick and heavy, chemicals wont work, you just have to abrade it off.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by CELL
Oh and I looked for an answer to the scratch-x question....on page 2 we have..

• Originally posted by LnkPrkSoldier
  would any other product work as well? how about scratch x?

And I cant seem to find you answering the question, Mike. Maybe I missed it elsewhere?

Well here's what I wrote, note the blue words...

Originally posted by Mike Phillips

If you re-read the thread, you'll learn that I've already answered this question and/or similar questions about products other than #4 (I think it's on page 1 or 2)

and here's the answer from page 2

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
No this product won't work to remove gunk that has built-up on the surface of window glass because it uses a microscopic diminishing abrasive, what works is the larger diminishing abrasive found in the M04 Heavy Cut Cleaner. If possible, shake up a bottle of both of these products and then pour some of each out and feel them between your fingers, you will notice right away the difference in they type of diminishing abrasive each uses.

Mike

ScratchX uses microscopic diminishing abrasives like M84 and M85

There's a good chance you didn't know that ScratchX uses microscopic diminishing abrasives? Here's a link to a popular thread that discusses this...

How to remove a defect by hand with ScratchX


Also, is you scroll down to the section on Paint Cleaners & Cleaner/Polishes, in the below thread, it also discusses this,

Meguiar's 5-Step Paint Care Cycle


Now I have a lot of other important work to do today, but I'll leave this thread with some questions that I asked you, but you never answered?


If we assume window glass starts out 100% clear and shiny, (it looks like that to me when I look at a brand new car), then if it becomes less clear and less shiny over time because some kind of gunk or mineral deposits that build-up on it from repeated exposure to water, (and whatever is in the water), and then you clean and polish it back to 100% clear and shiny, how can it now be harder to see through?

Note the words in blue...

If we assume window glass starts out 100% clear and shiny, (it looks like that to me when I look at a brand new car), then if it becomes less clear and less shiny over time because some kind of gunk or mineral deposits that build-up on it from repeated exposure to water, (and whatever is in the water), and then you clean and polish it back to 100% clear and shiny, how can it now be harder to see through?


For what it's worth, I've never seen what you've described in my entire life. But if you say it's possible and can explain how, well we're always open to new ideas.


This kind of begs the question as to whether you have ever used M04 to polish water spots or other built-up gunk off glass?


Also, keep in mind the forum rules.