Another boutique wax debate

[akimel]

I think it's been months since we had a boutique wax debate here on MOL. I'm in a mischievous mood (bruhahaha), so I thought I'd bring everyone's attention to a fun discussion over at Detailing World. Before contributing a comment to this thread, please read all the comments at the DW thread, paying special attention to the always intelligent comments by DaveKG and Dodo Factory (Dom Colbeck).

I especially appreciated the ten things Dom Colbeck says he has learned in the wax manufacturing business:

1) There is an awful lot of BS regarding what you are told is in certain waxes
2) There is an awful lot of BS regarding what ACTUALLY is in certain waxes (ie what is there but you're not told about)
3) Carnauba content is a poor way to assess overall performance and is overrated/overmarketd
4) 'Natural' claims tend to be overstated
5) Waxes and sealants cross over all the time, to differentiate them is almost meaningless these days
6) The prep is far more important than people realise when it comes to overall wax performance
7) Waxes don't add much to the look, but are there mainly for protection - prep is the stage that adds the most to gloss levels
8) As certain desirable wax characteristics go up, certain other desirable characteristics may go down (typically ease of use or 'naturalness' is traded against durability)
9) It can be easier getting high performance from synthetic ingredients than natural ones
10) Never believe the label or what the manufacturer says

Both Dave and Dom agree that polishing is the most important thing one can do to improve the shine and gloss of car paint.

Having now tried a number of waxes over the past year and a half, I have to confess that I see little difference between them; however, I do think I see a little difference. Maybe it's all subjective, maybe it's a placebo effect, maybe I'm projecting; but I still think I see nuances between waxes. I think. Maybe.

Okay, go at it. No flaming. No product trashing.

[Fly Bye]

Re: Another boutique wax debate

Having now tried a number of waxes over the past year and a half, I have to confess that I see little difference between them; however, I do think I see a little difference. Maybe it's all subjective, maybe it's a placebo effect, maybe I'm projecting; but I still think I see nuances between waxes. I think. Maybe.

I've been using Gold Class Liquid wax for about 4-5 years & lately M21 for about the last year or so. I have to say that the Gold Class seems to have a bit more depth to reflections and much overall gloss, leaving a bling, bling effect when the finish is viewed from any angle.

The M21 seems to have endless, deep reflections, and an overall fantastic result, but the Gold Class seems to have the upper hand, as I think it just has that extra bling, bling factor over the M21, although the M21 may last longer.




Maybe it is a placebo effect

[tcope1]

Re: Another boutique wax debate

I'd certainly agree with #1... which could also be applied to many of the other numbers.

What I disagree with slightly, and it's probable that those statements can be taken out of context, is that waxes and sealants are more alike then different. NXT 2.0 certainly is totally different then M16. It behaves differently and looks different. But they are alike in that the basically serve the same function.

I don't think prep is more important then the function of wax. I think prep is more important when it comes to looks then just applying wax but that is subjective and varies by degrees anyway. So mentioning the two together is pointless. Of course prep is most important to looks. Of course its important to use a LSP.

I think the over all point may be that each LSP is slightly different, that we all have our favorites and opinions but at the end of the day, they don't differ all that much.

But that still does not explain the 10 different LSP sitting on my shelf!

[imacarnut]

Re: Another boutique wax debate

Without proper prep, it doesn't matter what LSP you use. If someone wants to spend 100's or even 1000's on wax and it looks good in their eyes, more power to them. Everyone has their own tastes and what one person may like, another may not. To each his or her own..

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: Another boutique wax debate

I agree with the following: 1,2,5,9. I have to completely agree with #6. Prep is the key. With proper prep the finished look is appreciably higher then skipping the prep.

[KC's]

Re: Another boutique wax debate

i find this topic
where

no point fighting over theoretically,

just show side by side & if u can afford use it.....what is the different or eating crab or caviar

[Bunky]

Re: Another boutique wax debate

I think most agree prep is the key but given that a wax/sealant is a film, it has the ability to affect the optical properties. It can darken, lighten, or be neutral.

I did see one big wax test on DW using black cars where the conclusion was there was no difference but I think black is not the best color for comparisons. It never worked for me. I actually see more effect on colors especially metallics.

In my limited experience, test spot comparisons do not mean much and you have to do large sections to see how whole sections work with contours, etc. I have also had difference experiences with the same product (or so I think).

[TH0001]

Re: Another boutique wax debate

Dom is a GREAT GUY, btw...

1)1) There is an awful lot of BS regarding what you are told is in certain waxes-

Yes, this is true, and it is not hard to verify. Ask for an MSDS sheet for the product then compare it to the marketing. You might be suprised that your 8000 dollar wax more resembles the sovlents, chemicals, and ingredients found in any wax from 20-200 dollars, and less like an exotic fruit juice made of the rarest extracts.

2)2) There is an awful lot of BS regarding what ACTUALLY is in certain waxes (ie what is there but you're not told about)-

I know of several waxes, against some costing more then 1000 dollars, that are actually, by most definitions, a sealant. I won't mention names, but again a little time with MSDS sheets and 'Google' will prove this out. Also, you would be suprised at the amount of silicone in some of the SUPER EXPENSIVE waxes. It is crazy.

3)3) Carnauba content is a poor way to assess overall performance and is overrated/overmarketd

Carnauba is the rejected resin from a palm tree.. not a mythical ingredient harvested by virgins on a particular moon phase. The most carnauba you can melt into a wax is about 30% with modern VOC laws, and you wouldn't want more then that anyways. Then you would take up room from the chemicals that actually make the wax work.

4)4) 'Natural' claims tend to be overstated

Not only overstated, but crazy. MSDS sheets and google.

I agree with the rest as well.

[Calais]

Re: Another boutique wax debate

Say what you will but like any other car crazy detailer, I like to have a slew of waxes/sealants on hand at all times (for whatever is best on the particular car I'm working on). In my main detailing bag I have: Poorboys Natty's Red, M16, Pinnacle Souveran, Collinite 476s, NXT 2.0 and Poli-Seal. I also usually have ColorX and A12 Cleaner Wax in another detailing bag. They each have their favorable qualities that make them invaluable to me and when used in the right situation/combination, they are the finishing touch on a proper detailing job.

[Blueline]

Re: Another boutique wax debate

It is all down to people's opinions..and like the old saying, "like bums..everybody has one". My theory is that whatever smells the best will shine/protect the best. (I like to keep things simple..no flaming)

[tguil]

Re: Another boutique wax debate

NXT 2.0 is as "boutique" as I want/need to get.

Tom

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Another boutique wax debate

Nice to see a civil discussion about boutique waxes..... please let's just keep it this way!!!


Interesting that nobody here on MOL is really addressing the original intent of the post on DW - bringing down the cost of waxes.

Ingredients alone are not what causes one wax to cost more than another. Imagine where Meguiar's would have to price NXT Generation Tech Wax 2.0 if we only sold a few thousand bottles a year online, and we didn't have the rest of our capacities, infrastructure, etc to help bring the cost down. That is, what if Meguiar's was just a small company selling a couple of products in small numbers? We all know about economies of scale and the need to cover development costs. Meguiar's is enormous compared to most (well, all, really) of the companies that sell very expensive boutique waxes, and that scale means we need to purchase raw materials in very large quantities, and we get price breaks because of it. That should come as a shock to NOBODY.

If "Boutique Wax Maker A" could suddenly find a market for their product equal in size to that of NXT then they would suddenly also find a need to purchase a whole heck of a lot more raw materials. And they would be able to get those raw materials for less money per unit of measure than they do now. Manufacturing costs would also go down, for the same reasons. If you're blending 100 times (or 1,000 times) the amount of product, you can do it cheaper per unit. Simple economics.

Now, that also does NOT mean that the only reason these boutique waxes cost more is due to economy of scale - or lack thereof. But it is certainly part of it. Still, if a company tells you they are "using the most expensive ingredient" of it's kind, but they're only buying 500lbs at a time and someone else is buying 10,000lbs at a time, the cost is going to be different. Same high quality ingredient, but potentially very different prices.

As always, however, the bottom line comes down to you, the consumer. If you get everything you want out of regular use of $7 Meguiar's Cleaner Wax and you're perfectly content with that, you will never spend $125 or more on a specialty wax. If you honestly feel you're getting something more out of the expensive waxes, and you feel that "something more" is worth the extra price, then have at it! It all comes down to what the market will bear.

No flaming. No product trashing.

Please.

[Calais]

Re: Another boutique wax debate

Say what you will but like any other car crazy detailer, I like to have a slew of waxes/sealants on hand at all times (for whatever is best on the particular car I'm working on). In my main detailing bag I have: Poorboys Natty's Red, M16, Pinnacle Souveran, Collinite 476s, NXT 2.0 and Poli-Seal. I also usually have ColorX and A12 Cleaner Wax in another detailing bag. They each have their favorable qualities that make them invaluable to me and when used in the right situation/combination, they are the finishing touch on a proper detailing job.

To elaborate:

ColorX, A12 and Poli-Seal: are for one-step's. I use the two former cleaner waxes for oxidized finishes (I tend to finish up with another wax for added protection). They really serve their purpose in cleaning up simple dullness. Poli-Seal utilizes micro-abrasives so it is okay for light swirls and one-step seal jobs.

Natty's Red: very nice looking wax and, most importantly, can be used in the sun. It only lasts so long, so putting it on a sealant foundation may be a good thing. Its fairly inexpensive and a little goes a long way, it looks great on paints with any kind of flake.

M16, Collinite: My powerhouse protectors. They offer the best protection for the longest time. M16 is also for light colored cars (I like it best on white and silver). Collinite is for rare customers or customers who, I know, will not maintain through washing and re-waxing. Both serve their purpose and when applied very thinly, aren't too hard to use.

Pinnacle Souveran: my go-to "show car" wax. I use it on black and red cars that are garage queens, show cars or cars that need to look good for the weekend. It doesn't last especially long, but the look is amazing and its ease of us is unprecedented. I charge an extra $10 for a coat of it but considering that it is a $100/tub wax, I think that its a good deal for both the customer and myself.

NXT 2.0: is the easiest to use sealant I've tried. It goes on and comes off so easy that I can't help but use it. I use it on semi-regular customers who I know will come back for maintenance but not for a couple months. Also looks very nice on silvers and whites.

(I also have Gold Class, MPPP and a few others for specific occasions.)

[Andrew C.]

Re: Another boutique wax debate

I haven't had time to read through this whole thread yet, but on the subject of whether or not you can see a difference between waxes I would have to say that you can see a difference.

My personal experience was when using Natty's Red. This is not a boutique wax by any means and I was not expecting anything too great from it when I first used it. To my surprise I thought my truck almost looked the best I have ever seen with it on, so this really wasn't a placebo effect since I wasn't really expecting much out of it and turned out to look really great.

[tguil]

Re: Another boutique wax debate

OK. I'll play a bit more. A "boutique" wax that is not mentioned often is S10 for motorcycles and P21S for cars. Same wax as far as I can tell but the motorcycle wax is $15.99 for 6.2 ounces and the car wax is $33.99 for 6.2 ounces. The company that makes both will not comment on the price difference. It is advertised as a carnauba wax and is easy on/easy off and does not stain trim. This wax will make a black Harley Davidson really "pop", but in my opinion not any more so than NXT 2.0. It most definitely does not last as long as NXT. Until I "got a life", I used it frequently on my Harleys. Now it sits on the shelf.

I still use my "boutique" # 16 on my guns.

Tom