M105 with rotary trouble

[Mister B]

I got an old (probably from the mid 80’s) white Volvo fender from my neighbor to use for playing around with my rotary buffer. I went out into the garage last night and put the fender up on some saw horses and then clayed the fender and then laid down a bead of M105 (new version), put on my Solo burgundy wool pad, primed the pad with some #34 and began to work a small section of the fender. The buffer immediately just grabbed and grabbed, it did not buff smooth at all. I worked it for less than a minute and then tried wiping off the residue with a microfiber. The residue was not coming off, so I sprayed some #34 on it and I could still not remove the residue very well. I had to spray some APC onto the fender in order to remove all of the residue. I don’t know what the deal was. Every time I tried it, I got the same results. So then I switched to a 5.5” Lake Country Hydro-Tech cyan cutting pad and worked the M105 in with that pad. It worked a bit smoother but it was still gummy. I kept working it until it was almost gone though and that time I was able to wipe off the majority of the residue, but there were still spots that I could not remove all of it, so I had to use the APC again.

Last week I used the M105 and the Solo Burgundy wool pad on the plastic hood of my John Deere riding mower after I lightly wet sanded some heavy scratches out of it with 2000 grit sandpaper and I did not have any problems like this with the M105 at all. In fact it worked great. I know that was plastic and this is paint, but I was still surprised how much trouble that painted fender gave me.

Here is a 50/50 of the mower hood. The right side is untouched and the left side is after 2000 wet sandpaper and M105 with Burgundy Wool and then M205 with Polishing pad





Can any of the pros out there give me some tips on what I should try with that fender I am playing with the Rotary on?

[Mister B]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

I don't know if it is the paint, the pad I am using, the product I am using or a combination of everything.

Maybe it is just me, and I need to keep practicing at it, but M105 was very sticky when buffing with the Solo burgundy wool on that fender and the M105 residue was almost impossible to remove without APC.

When I used M105 on my truck via G100 I had none of these problems. Application and removal was very easy. It has been quite different with this fender and the rotary however.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated?

[Michael Stoops]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

It looks as though you've come across one of those rare cases where M105 is not the right product - good thing for you is that it's on a test panel!!

Keep in mind that M105 was developed primarily for body shop use to remove sanding marks very quickly while leaving minimal holograms. Sometimes on older, dried out paint it just isn't the best choice. That does not mean that M105 was designed strictly for fresh paint, just that this is it's prime target. Speaking from personal experience for just a second, I have encountered only a single vehicle where M105 behaved this way - nothing before and nothing since. That car had paint that I could only describe as "dried out". Oddly enough, it was a Ferrari 360 Modena.

In the case of your test panel you may find that M95 Speed Cut Compound or M86 So1o will behave more to your liking. Both use SMAT to some degree and offer excellent cutting ability.

[Hemin8r]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

After the pad has been primed use a little less M105 and try spreading it out about 10"x 10" or 12"x 12" section at a slow speed 600-900 and slowly pick up the RPMS on the rotory see if that works.

[Mister B]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

In the case of your test panel you may find that M95 Speed Cut Compound or M86 So1o will behave more to your liking. Both use SMAT to some degree and offer excellent cutting ability.

Since I do not have either of those products on hand at the moment, maybe I will break out the old School M80 and M83 since this is older paint and see how those 2 products perform first.

[Mister B]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

After the pad has been primed use a little less M105 and try spreading it out about 10"x 10" or 12"x 12" section at a slow speed 600-900 and slowly pick up the RPMS on the rotory see if that works.

I'll give that a try.

Thanks

[the_invisible]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

If you're having trouble removing the residue produced by M105, try spraying the residue with iced-cold water and wipe it immediately. That should remove the residue easily, without the needs of using IPA or APC.

[Markus Kleis]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

For the record, Last Touch = your best friend for breaking up dried polish or compound residue for safe, easy removal. It works particularly well with M105.

If you are getting the "glazed" effect with the M105 you may be working it too fast, too long, or moving the pad around too quickly and not letting the product work and break down.

Moving the rotary around too quickly with a higher rotary speed is a common way to get that hard-to-remove M105 residue.

[Mister B]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

If you are getting the "glazed" effect with the M105 you may be working it too fast, too long, or moving the pad around too quickly and not letting the product work and break down.

Moving the rotary around too quickly with a higher rotary speed is a common way to get that hard-to-remove M105 residue.

I don't know for sure, but I don't think I worked it around too quicky. I mean the area of the fender I worked on was only 12" or 14" square. I did not work it very long at all either because it would just constantly grab and grab, not smooth buffing at all, very sticky. I also tried it at several speeds, slow and medium speed with the same results.

[PorscheGuy997]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

It sounds like a few things are going on here.

First, I would try priming the pad with M105 (same as doing the KBM) and then pick up a much smaller bead of product. Sometimes, too much product will cause M105 to adhere to the paint.

How hot was the panel? M105 does not like heat. If you have a set of halogens near the paint, it will cause M105 to dry up quickly.

Just to be safe, I would also clean the pad after every pass.

If the paint still isn't polishing well, there are still more options. You could switch to a less aggressive pad. Or, you could prime the pad with M205 and pick up a bead of M205. This is not recommended, but I have had great results with this combination. The longer working time of M205 allows you polish tricky paint much easier than just M105 alone. Yes, you lose some of the cutting of M105, but it does finish very well.

[Mister B]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

How hot was the panel?

The panel was cold. It was in the 50's inside the garage and I was not using any halogens. After a few passes over one section of the panel, it was barely warm in that spot. I was using barely any pressure because it was grabbing so much.

Just to be safe, I would also clean the pad after every pass.

How do you clean your wool pad after every pass? I was just using the metal spur on it.

[the_invisible]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

Pad grabbing and hopping with M105 are extremely common if you do a search. I experienced the same thing when I was buffing out my car. I quickly did a google search and found the solution. I primed the solo pad with something like final inspection and M105 to reduce grabbing. Putting more pressure on the pad also helps. Increasing machine speed will also reduce grabbing. I wouldn't move the pad "slowly" in an attempt to reduce gumming as that may generate too much heat. In fact, for me, moving the pad too slowly was the apparent cause for gumming. Your result may vary, however.

If grabbing still persists, I suggest you grab some LC purple foamed wool pads. It offers slightly less cutting power, but it finishes just as well as the Lake Country orange pad. These pads completely eliminate grabbing and hopping, and they produce extremely little heat. These are the wool pads to learn rotary on.

[PorscheGuy997]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

How do you clean your wool pad after every pass? I was just using the metal spur on it.

Spurring is fine. After a while, switch to a fresh pad or clean it with a System 2k or Grit Guard pad washer.

How much has the pad been used? You never want to have too much spent product in the pad. Also, wool pads do wear out. A worn out wool pad will be noticeably smaller in diameter than a new pad.

How much product are you using when first starting? The pad will often absorb some of the product and it is perfectly normal to pick up another bead and continue buffing.

Putting more pressure on the pad also helps. Increasing machine speed will also reduce grabbing.

I would not increase the speed or increase the pressure. The combination of the two can create some serious problems. By adding speed and pressure, you are fighting the machine and will remove more paint than necessary and add heat. This can also cause M105 and wool fibers to pack together and leave some severe swirls.

[Mister B]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

How much has the pad been used?

The pad is brand new. I only used it on my riding mower hood one time before getting this fender off of my neighbor. I then washed the pad by hand, let it dry and then a few days later started on this fender.

How much product are you using when first starting?

I primed the pad with a couple sprays of #34 and then laid down a 6" bead of 105 and then started form there. Buffed for maybe 30 seconds (if that) and then laid down another 6" bead. After that I started spurring the pad after every pass or 2 but still had the same problem I started with, so I stopped.[/QUOTE]

I'm going to try and get out there again in the next couple days and experiment with some of the suggestions that I received here.

[Tim Lingor]

Re: M105 with rotary trouble

I would not increase the speed or increase the pressure. The combination of the two can create some serious problems. By adding speed and pressure, you are fighting the machine and will remove more paint than necessary and add heat. This can also cause M105 and wool fibers to pack together and leave some severe swirls.

Agreed. Usually, when someone is very new to the rotary, they increase the power and downward pressure in order to overcome the loss of control they are having. It takes a long time to get the feel of the rotary and while some pads are indeed easier to use, it is operator error that leads to the vast majority of problems...

For Mister B, there are some paints that just do not respond well to certain products and certain techniques. What may work on one, may not on the other. On some paints, the oxidation and other factors may make the paint sticky, causing the rotary to bounce. One way to overcome that is to apply and remove a coat of M03 Machine Glaze of M07 Show Car Glaze before using the rotary polisher. The TS Oils from the pure polish will help to lubricate the surface to a limited degree but it will in fact make it much easier to use a rotary on. In some cases, it may be necessary to lightly mist the surface with M34 Final Inspection (leaving it on the surface wet) and then start rotary polishing. However, this will cause some spray, so protect areas accordingly. Sometimes a paint needs more product, less product etc. Over working a product can make it gummy and so can using it with an over-saturated pad.

If a product becomes gummy, the old expression of like dissolves like is needed. Just apply a little more of the M105 and it will remove the gummed up product easily. M34 Final Inspection will also remove it easily. Again, this is usually caused by using too much product and or the wrong speed; usually too high of speed.

In the end, it comes down to practice and more practice along with learning the little tricks that helps one deal with difficult paints. I did a new Volvo a while back and it was a serious pain to detail while others have found other Volvo models easy to work with. So again, it depends on that particular car and paint.

Try the above and if you are still having trouble, then try switching to a different pad (different cut level) or a product like M95. Give the above a try and report back!

Tim