Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

[OhioCarBuff]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

Also keep in mind that the new products utilizing the SMA technology make the PC much more effective

[Justin Murphy]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

Also keep in mind that the new products utilizing the SMA technology make the PC much more effective

SMA? Elaborate please.

I know that Prima and Gloss-It's compounds/polishes are made for the DA/PC and are not recommended for the rotary. Maybe what you're talking about.

[Tim Lingor]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

Morning,

I voted yes and I will explain why I did.

It depends on how you define a "Pro". With the advent of the Internet, there are many Keyboard Commandos on the Internet that call themselves "Pros" in an effort of Self Promotion. They are the ones that spend hours searching the sites, finding the information and then posting it again like they actually had experience doing it themselves. These are not "Pros" as they lack the practical experience which is only obtained from many years of doing their craft. People who are new to detailing are often unknowingly attracted to these people. Just look at the Who's Online on MOL or You Tube sometime!

A "Pro" to me is a person with the skill and practical experience from years of practicing their craft to handle 98% of the problems thrown at them in their area of expertise. This takes many years of mastering your craft, from actual practical experience. Based on that definition, a "Pro" needs to be a master of every tool in his/her "tool box" to accomplish said job. There are many times when the basic tools and knowledge just will not be enough...

While a person skilled in using a DA can certainly be called a Pro if they are proficient with its use, the rotary is often required in certain conditions where a DA would be inappropriate. In other words, match the tool to the job. The DA can do amazing things, but it is not a rotary. I have been using a rotary for around 22 years and the DA since Porter Cable introduced it, and while I love using the PC or the G110, the rotary is more appropriate and often required in certain situations, IMO.

The DA will in my opinion bring the finish to an incredible level but I have detailed some paints where a DA could not even touch removing the swirls and that was with products not officially recommended at that time to be used with the DA. I will admit that I am one of those that has used gallons of M105 in a manner not recommended: with the DA. So even with the new W-7207 Cutting Pad, with M105, the DA just did not have the power to remove the swirls on certain paints. Sure, it could *maybe* remove them after 20 passes, but that would increase the length of the detail to a few days. In this case the rotary was the more appropriate tool for the job!

So again, back to how I define a Pro. It is someone that can deal with a situation by using their mastery of every tool in their tool box. So again, while a DA user can be called a Pro, there are some paints or jobs like wet sanding mark removal which requires a rotary (in every wet sanding detail I have dealt with, a DA was just not enough). Therefore when someone comes to you because you claim to be a "Pro", you should be able to handle 98% of the situations which also means having mastered many tools in your toolbox, not just the DA as mastery of the DA is simply not enough in many situations. It is not your skill level with the DA but rather the limitations of the tool itself which may determine your success.

Tim

[drculinarian]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

I think that you you will find that master of ones craft and a professional are to two different things. Proficiency at a certain aspect of a trade and you can be a professional. A mastery of a craft does not make one a professional. Just ask Bobby Jones; one of the greatest golfers of all time yet played as a amateur.

Dr. Maurice

[Lexus Guy04]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

I think when he said SMA, he was referring to the new Super Micro Abrasive products.

[OhioCarBuff]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

I think when he said SMA, he was referring to the new Super Micro Abrasive products.

Yes sir, the new line of products with the super micro abrasives will make the PC a much more effective tool

[Tim Lingor]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

I think that you you will find that master of ones craft and a professional are to two different things. Proficiency at a certain aspect of a trade and you can be a professional. A mastery of a craft does not make one a professional. Just ask Bobby Jones; one of the greatest golfers of all time yet played as a amateur.

Dr. Maurice

Agreed. However, it depends on the profession. In detailing, labelling oneself as a Pro has a connotation and expectation by the public of exceptional experience in which many cases is not accurate. Moreover, since detailing is unregulated, anyone can call themselves a Pro.

In other professions there is a certain level of formal training that is required to make one proficient in certain aspects of a trade or at least made to achieve a minimum established proficiency standard in said trade. In this case, in regards to using a rotary does that make one a Pro? No, it does not. However, it does provide a person the ability to meet the expectations of the person coming to you expecting to make their paint perfect. Again this is assuming the paint hardness, etc in which case a DA is unsuitable.

If you do indeed have a PhD or a Doctorate, you have achieved a certain level of proficiency before that title is granted; (I myself have a BEd Degree.) In detailing there is no such guarantee. Now again, the question is about the use of the rotary in a professional setting (IE. for money) in which case, the title of Pro takes on a whole new meaning. In the context of the original question, the term Pro as I defined it explains my opinion on this industry. My definition does not equate to other industries or sports.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of doctor are you? I have this pain....



Tim

[drculinarian]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

I have a Doctorate of Ministry in Theology of which we both know nobody knows it all. In fact the more I learn the less I seem to know so that is probably a bad analogy. I understand what your saying and I agree with it to a certain extent; but the question remains, can you still be a professional without being able to use a rotary? The answer has to be, yes. Are you a master of the art of detailing without using the rotary? The answer would then be probably not. The rotary is a valuable tool, no doubt, but is it a tool you could do without and stil get the job done?

Dr Maurice

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

Obviously it comes down to the definition of a professional detailer.

We can argue/discuss this until we are blue in the face, but it is all a waste. It really only matters what is intended by the word "pro."

IMO, there are basically 3 ways to look at defining "pro" in the context of detailing: 1.) Simply meaning you are someone that does "detailing" and gets paid for it. 2.) You detail for money, but mostly focus on quick washes and occasional waxes...not really spending the majority of your time creating perfect paint (ie paint correction), or 3.) You are a professional in the sense that you truly have mastered all of the tools of detailing, and use them to make money. Anyone who details for money with the INTENT on delivering perfection will tell you that a rotary is a must-have tool. Not because a DA can't be used to deliver the same end results, but because the rotary is more efficient at serious paint correction.

I have a hard time finishing a single job in a single day WITH a rotary....with anything less it would be completely out of the question.

So, could you hypothetically achieve the same results using hand and DA as with a rotary? Probably... BUT, a pro detailer NEEDS to be efficient with their time...and that often requires a rotary.

That's my 2 cents anyway

[Tim Lingor]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

I have a Doctorate of Ministry in Theology of which we both know nobody knows it all. In fact the more I learn the less I seem to know so that is probably a bad analogy. I understand what your saying and I agree with it to a certain extent; but the question remains, can you still be a professional without being able to use a rotary? The answer has to be, yes. Are you a master of the art of detailing without using the rotary? The answer would then be probably not. The rotary is a valuable tool, no doubt, but is it a tool you could do without and stil get the job done?

Dr Maurice

LOLOL I agree; the more we learn the less we indeed really know!

If you are asking me whether I feel that I could detail a car without a rotary then the answer would be: it depends. If the paint is on a Vette or a Benz which is usually as hard as glass then I would say no, I need a rotary. But on other more workable paints, the DA would suffice just fine. As I have said, I have come across paints where a DA just will not do the job as it just does not have the power of a rotary. Like I said, the issue is not your skill nor your desire but rather the limitation of the tool.

If you are asking me would I detail a car without a rotary, then I would say no. In my opinion the rotary creates a liquid look to the paint that is difficult if not impossible to replicate with a DA. Would the average person see the difference, probably not; but I do. However, I rarely finish car with a rotary and always reach for the DA.

All I am trying to say is that for someone to call themselves a Pro, they need to meet the expectations of the person trying to hire them as a Pro. There are no standards in the industry and the Internet tends to cater to Keyboard Commandos who can claim to be anything they want. They try a product once and suddenly they are an "expert" on the use of the product. Sad but true. There are many hacks out there who claim to be one of the best detailers (and love to promote themselves in that manner as well) and yet their credentials are laughable at best!

So back on topic, does a rotary make one a pro? Certainly not as evident in the You Tube videos out there! Yikes! But it will allow one to deal with certain situations where the DA is inappropriate or just simply can not do the job regardless of skill level of the operator.

As for your Doctorate, darn...I have this pain and I was hoping for a second opinion!

Tim

[Tim Lingor]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

Obviously it comes down to the definition of a professional detailer.

We can argue/discuss this until we are blue in the face, but it is all a waste. It really only matters what is intended by the word "pro."

IMO, there are basically 3 ways to look at defining "pro" in the context of detailing: 1.) Simply meaning you are someone that does "detailing" and gets paid for it. 2.) You detail for money, but mostly focus on quick washes and occasional waxes...not really spending the majority of your time creating perfect paint (ie paint correction), or 3.) You are a professional in the sense that you truly have mastered all of the tools of detailing, and use them to make money. Anyone who details for money with the INTENT on delivering perfection will tell you that a rotary is a must-have tool. Not because a DA can't be used to deliver the same end results, but because the rotary is more efficient at serious paint correction.

I have a hard time finishing a single job in a single day WITH a rotary....with anything less it would be completely out of the question.

So, could you hypothetically achieve the same results using hand and DA as with a rotary? Probably... BUT, a pro detailer NEEDS to be efficient with their time...and that often requires a rotary.

That's my 2 cents anyway

Interesting comments Mark! How long have you been using the rotary polisher? When I was the Super Mod on here I remember reading about it, but I can not remember exactly when??? But I agree, the rotary can sure make life easier on those difficult paints and it sounds like you have come across a few!!!

The reason I have stated that there are times that a rotary is simply required is that I unfortunately have come across paints that left me shaking my head and fist! It would simply laugh at the DA and though the DA may be able to do the job if I had a few days, it is like you said, the rotary is much more efficient. But as I have also said, there is something magical about the liquid look the rotary creates on the paint!

In the end, one must use whichever tool he/she feels comfortable and proficient at using. Because in the end, it is the satisfaction of the car owner whose paint was detailed that will help or hurt the detailing industry and ultimately the detailer's themselves.

Tim

[Daniel Kinder]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

I know of many here that can take the G110 and ColorX and walk circles around pros at so called detail shops.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

It depends on how you define a "Pro".

That's the big variable in this discussion... how do you define Professional?

Probably would have kept the discussion more specific if the definition of Professional had been included at the start, but regardless it's still a good discussion...

To me, if you do this for a living and get paid, you are a Professional. Now, it's not necessary to use the rotary on details and on most cars probably for your daily drivers as Mike pointed out the DA will do just fine.

Having said that, I would think that if this is your lively hood, you would want to become as efficient as you possibly can, thus the rotary when in experienced hands will do the job faster, allowing you to be more productive???

And you can always grow in your field and add more tools and skills as you gain more experience, or in other words you can start out using only your hands and the DA Polisher and as a person gets more experience under their belt then they can move up to the rotary buffer.

In fact we see this as a trend on this forum all the time...

Some people actually think that unless you spend a minimum of 10 hours on a vehicle, you're not a detailer......you're just a glorified car washer.

I like to do a job as fast as I can without sacrificing quality, problem is most of the projects I've been fortunate to work on usually trend towards long hours, not short hours, The Bentley took about 12 hours from start to finish... not counting approximately 2 hours driving time one way.

The best tools can make a crappy detailer good. I know of many here that can take the G110 and ColorX and walk circles around pros at so called detail shops.

From the volume of rotary buffer horror stories and pictures posted to this forum and others before letting anyone use a rotary buffer on your car you first need to somehow verify they're not going to swirl out your finish.

Often times when people come to this forum seeking information about getting a paint job on their car or a portion of their car re-painted one of the topics I'll cover and make them aware of is that it doesn't matter how great the painter is because it's the kind that sands and buffs that's going to make or break the end-results.

For this reason we usually recommend that the inquiring member ask how they're going to buff out the paint? It's easier to prevent a swirled out paint job than try to fix it after the fact and every time someone swirls out a paint job the repair means removing more of the precious film-build which is a lose/lose situation for the customer.

Think this specific factor was covered in detail in this thread and the dealer ended up taking the car back and the guy got his money back.

Are holograms and buffer swirl the norm for a black car?

Well I pushed the dealer on Superior Shine, and rather than pay the $600 he actually took the car back and is going to issue a check on Monday for a full refund.

Good discussion, one thing about forums is that topics of interest usually get discussed as long as it takes for everything to get sorted out and everyone's happy... more or less...

[Tim Lingor]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

That's the big variable in this discussion... how do you define Professional?

Probably would have kept the discussion more specific if the definition of Professional had been included at the start, but regardless it's still a good discussion...

I agree, it is a good discussion. I am not sure if your comment above was directed at my definition of "professional" or one's opinion of the term "professional" in general. Either way, as I said, the definition means many things to many people, and it is discussions like this which are really helpful by bringing clarity and often consensus, to a certain degree at least, to these topics!

Tim

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Have to use the rotary to be a pro?

Interesting comments Mark! How long have you been using the rotary polisher? When I was the Super Mod on here I remember reading about it, but I can not remember exactly when???

I think I started in about July. I was using a FLEX 3401 for a while before that, so the switch wasn't a big deal.

I know that I am new to the tool...but I think my learning curve was substantially reduced because of the information and experiences I was able to learn from online, coupled with a fairly steady stream of details available to me. I fully appreciate that reading is only good for some much, but it also does help to reduce the time needed to learn how to do things. At least for me.

I know I have a lot to learn, but I also feel very confident with a rotary. I don't think twice about going to the rotary because I am proficient enough that I haven't had a single time where I did something with the rotary that I wasn't able to un-do. (Ie holograms, etc).

I do look forward to getting a few years under my belt though, because I am sure that a lot of skill and learning must be first hand...