Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

[Boba]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

No, you follow a harsh/compound/polish with a medium or fine polish as it is a step less aggressive and it abrades away the rough surface from the previous step, leaving behind smaller scratches...sometimes so small you can not see them (with fine polishes).

Have you ever worked with wood and sandpaper? It is common to start with an abrasive sandpaper such as 80 grit (meaning 80 particles that cut per square inch), which takes lots of wood out with each pass, but leaves many scratches. Next, you would follow with something like 120 grit, then 220, 440, etc until you reach a finish that is suitable for your tastes and application.

Same concept applies to paint. You start with more aggressive products and work your way back down to fine products that leave the finish smooth and glossy.




Again, to clarify, a finishing polish IS an abrasive product, albeit very gentle. It is intended to remove fine scratches, leaving such fine scratches that you will not see them at all, but instead see a flawless and glossy finish.

Thanks Mark, but I've heard people say to use the least abrasive compound first to see if that will remove the swirl. If not, move up to more abrasive. I'm confused by these 2 concepts.

edit: I understand now after thinking about the sand papers.

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

So the reason why people apply finishing polishes after using abrasive polishes is because they are "filling" in the scratches that the abrasive polish left behind?

No, you follow a harsh/compound/polish with a medium or fine polish as it is a step less aggressive and it abrades away the rough surface from the previous step, leaving behind smaller scratches...sometimes so small you can not see them (with fine polishes).

Have you ever worked with wood and sandpaper? It is common to start with an abrasive sandpaper such as 80 grit (meaning 80 particles that cut per square inch), which takes lots of wood out with each pass, but leaves many scratches. Next, you would follow with something like 120 grit, then 220, 440, etc until you reach a finish that is suitable for your tastes and application.

Same concept applies to paint. You start with more aggressive products and work your way back down to fine products that leave the finish smooth and glossy.

Is that also the purpose of the finishing polish - to fill in the cut?

Again, to clarify, a finishing polish IS an abrasive product, albeit very gentle. It is intended to remove fine scratches, leaving such fine scratches that you will not see them at all, but instead see a flawless and glossy finish.

[Boba]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

Thanks a lot for the help guys! Wow, that is a lot of information to absorb. One question from one of Mike's replies about abrasive/non-abrasive polishes:

Another meaning for the term non-abrasive means it won't instill scratches, that is it's not scratchy. It can remove scratches without leaving behind it's own scratches in its place, thus it's non-abrasive. (It's also a science and an art forum)

Most traditional rubbing and polishing compounds are gritty and scratchy. You can find posts on this forum showing pictures of the paint after people have used product like this and the paint tends to look scoured. These types of products are abrasive.

So the reason why people apply finishing polishes after using abrasive polishes is because they are "filling" in the scratches that the abrasive polish left behind? If that is correct, then there would be no need for finishing polish if they are using non-abrasive products?

Also, non-abrasive polishes do not remove paint and fill in the scratches/swirls to temporary hide it while abrasive polishes remove a very thin layer of paint and will permanently remove scratches/swirls? One last thing, if it cuts through the paint, doesn't it also cut through the clear coat? Is that also the purpose of the finishing polish - to fill in the cut?

Please tell me if I'm making sense. Just trying to put all the puzzles together.


MUCH THANKS!!!

[akimel]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

My questions:
1.) Out of all the polishing compounds from the Professional (Mirror Glaze Brand), which ones are the best suitable for me? I want to permanently remove swirl marks/scratches and prefer to use non-abrasive products

Boba, the two products all of us Meguiars' newbs get are M80 and M83. I'm confident that all the experienced detailers here on MOL would agree that these are the two polishing products you should invest in. Mike Phillips has numerous articles scattered through the archives describing how to safely and effectively use these two products to eliminate swirls and scratches.

HOWEVER, beginning next year Meguiars will be adding a couple new products to the consumer line: SwirlX and ScratchX 2.0. If you can wait that long, you might want to consider choosing these two product instead, as they are based on Megs' new micro-abrasive technology.

2.) Is there a sealant that can compete with Zaino's Z2? Durability is my biggest concern.

I do not know if any of the Meguiar's products can compete with Zaino in terms of durability and longevity, but M20 and M21 will give them a run for their money. And the nice thing is that they are fully compatible with Meguiar's cleaning polishes and pure polishes (glazes). I have just been reading through the archive about #20 (Polymer Sealant) and was pleasantly surprised to find several people touting its durability. Apparently, many MOL players use it as their winter sealant. I did not know that until a couple of days ago.

Durability is a concern of mine during the winter months, but as soon as spring arrives I become more concerned with keeping my car looking as shiny as I can keep her, which means regular washing (weekly) and waxing (monthly). If you check the polls, you will find that the majority of MOL members wax their favorite car a minimum of once a month. I infer from this that they are less interested in stretching the longevity of the last coat of wax as they are in maintaining and improving their car's showcase shine.

If there is a detailing system that could meets my expectations, I'm sure I will be sticking with Meguiar's from now on.

In addition to good quality products, you also get a knowledgeable and supportive community here at MOL to help you every step of the way.

Good luck.
Al

P.S. Boba, if Mike Phillip's gives you instruction or advice, you can take it to the bank!

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

2.) Is there a sealant that can compete with Zaino's Z2? Durability is my biggest concern.

Zaino lasts a long time, but the truth is durability and protection are two different things, you can have a product on the surface of the paint that beads water for a long time, but if a bird flies by and drops a bird dropping onto the paint, the uric acid in the bird dropping will eat through any micron thin layer of protection and start etching the paint if not removed in a timely manner.

In other words, anything strong enough to etch modern, catalyzed clear coat paint technology is strong enough to etch past a thin layer of any car wax or paint sealant that you pour out of a bottle or scoop out of a can and apply to your car's paint.

Doesn't even matter how may "layers" of any product you put on the car.

I've been posting to the forums since Al Gore invented the Internet and seen a lot of emotional flame wars over whose wax is best and the truth is even if you win the argument, you still lose. And being the veteran of plenty of Wax Wars has taught me to take my own advice in my signature line. It's fine to discuss wax brands till the cows come home but at the end of the day the only test that really matters is the one you do on your car that makes you happy.

So.. if you like Zaino then by all means use it and when you use it follow the manufactures recommendations. Instead of using M09 or one of our other products, pick up some ZPC and if you don't have a Dual Action Polisher yet then by all means step up to machine polishing. The human hand can never outperform the machine when the goal is to achieve a flawless, show car finish on modern clear coat paints.


Since your profile shows that you live in California, sign-up for one of our Saturday classes nd we'll show you how to use a DA Polisher right the first time every time no matter whose products you're using and we do this for free plus feed you donuts and coffee for breakfast and great pizza lunch.

Saturday Classes for 2009
The 2009 Saturday Class Schedule and Sign-Up threads have been posted!

2009 Saturday Class Schedule (Complete yearly schedule)

January
January 10th - Open Class
January 24th - Open Class

February
February 7th - Open Class
February 21st - Open Class

Hope that helps...

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

I want to permanently remove swirl marks/scratches and prefer to use non-abrasive products

It's impossible to remove below surface defects with ANY company's products without removing paint. The below article can be found in our Hot Topics forum which has 4 pages with 30 threads on a page of "Hot Topics".

What it means to remove a scratch out of anything...

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

By the way, do these 3 products permanently remove swirl/scratches or do they just temporary hide it?

Meguiar's cleaner/polishes remove paint and thus can remove below surface defects like swirls, that doesn't mean one of these product has the ability to remove all swirls as some swirls may be too deep or the paint to had or the person using them not using them correctly to maximize their effectiveness.

If any of these three don't get the job done then we recommend testing a more aggressive product until you find the right product to remove the swirls and scratches to your satisfaction.

Here's a true story to drive the point home,

I had a guy call me on the phone after buffing out an aluminum fuel tank o a tanker truck using a coarse compound with a wool pad on a rotary buffer. He said it removed the oxidized aluminum, (the goal of his work), but left swirls in the aluminum.

He asked if #9 Swirl Remover would remove the swirls in the aluminum.

I told him "No" and he was frustrated by my answer because the name of the product on the label said "Swirl Remover".

Obviously he didn't have any common sense. You can run into people on other forums that may have the best of intentions but don't understand that a light cleaner/polish cannot do the work of a compound nor can a light cleaner/polish for paint do the work that should be done by a metal polish.

One of the things we really try hard to teach people on this forum is the idea of doing a Test Spot, that it test out the products, pads and process you're thinking about using over the entire vehicle to just one small spot or section and make sure you can make that one small section look great before going over the entire car.

If you can't make one small spot look good you're not going to be able to make the entire vehicle look good and you'll be glad you have only worked on that one small spot.

There are many different paint systems on the market both at the manufacturing level and the refinishing level and what this means is what works great on one type of paint may not work great on a different type of pad. Thus the importance of doing a test spot.

I've been detailing cars for over 20 years and I ALWAYS do a test spot because I never know how a paint system is going to react until I work on it and a person never gets so good they can just "know" how a paint is going to react.

Always do a test spot before going over the entire car.

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

Boba-

Mike Phillips is the best person to thoroughly answer your question, but I will point one thing out for now from your post, "I want to remove the swirls...I want to permanently remove swirl marks/scratches and prefer to use non-abrasive products." - Boba

Removing a defect in the paint REQUIRES removing paint. You can not do this without abrasive products. This is not something to be feared if you are working with a quality product (like Meguiar's) coupled with an understanding of what you are doing, and what you have to work with.


I noticed you mentioned having "thin" paint, care to elaborate?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

For best results it's usually best to follow the manufactures recommendations. Sal recommends applying his products to a surface free from any polishing oils so if you want best results then probably better follow his directions.

And as usual,

"Find something you like and use it often"

As often as needed to meet your car care goals and after factoring in how you use the car. See my sig line for the rest...

[Boba]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

Thanks Al for the links, helped me a lot!

I think Zaino recommends a dawn wash to strip the oils off, because Z2 won't bond to an oily surface, such as that left behind by Menzerna and I'm sure the same case would apply to an oily product like M09 or M80.

Yeah I was thinking about that. And after reading through the links Al has posted, it seems like it's better to stick to one company's products and go all the way with it. That being said, the reason why I bought the Z2 was because reviews said that it had GREAT durability - 6 months no problem, and the slickness of it. However, I'm willing to try Meguiar's products. I'm just so confused as Meguiar's has A MILLION products and I just get .

---------------------------------------------------------

I have a San Marino Blue (Dark Blue) 350z (I think 350z has thin paint) and from my inexperience in car washing, I had put swirl marks on it. The current products I have are:

- Meguiar's Gold Class wash soap
- Meguiar's M09 (I think I've had it for over 4+ years...Is it still useable?)

Basically, I want to remove the swirls and put a sealant on it to protect it, then top it off with the remaining Mother's California liquid wax.

My questions:
1.) Out of all the polishing compounds from the Professional (Mirror Glaze Brand), which ones are the best suitable for me? I want to permanently remove swirl marks/scratches and prefer to use non-abrasive products (Also will be my first time detailing, but I'm sure this is no problem for me).

2.) Is there a sealant that can compete with Zaino's Z2? Durability is my biggest concern.


If there is a detailing system that could meets my expectations, I'm sure I will be sticking with Meguiar's from now on.


Thanks!

[Holden_Caulfield04]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

I think Zaino recommends a dawn wash to strip the oils off, because Z2 won't bond to an oily surface, such as that left behind by Menzerna and I'm sure the same case would apply to an oily product like M09 or M80.

[akimel]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

Boba, please take a look at these two threads:

Do Glazes/Fillers affect the bonding of NXT?

What's the deal with "Layering?"

#82 Before a Sealant

Also see:

Using the G-100 to remove swirls with the Professional Line

Tips & Techniques for using the G110, G100, G220 and the PC Dual Action Polisher

I think that some, if not most, of your questions will be addressed in these four threads.

Cheers,
Al

[Boba]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

Sorry about that Andy.

The reason why I asked was because of someone's reply on Autopia:

Have you verified that Zaino will bond OK to what M09 leaves behind? With all its fillers and Trade Secret Oils, M09 isn't something I would plan to use before a sealant (and doing a rubbing alcohol wipe after M09 would undo most of the benefit from using M09 by removing such stuff).

By the way, do these 3 products permanently remove swirl/scratches or do they just temporary hide it?

[BlueZero]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

I have not used Zaino. However I have used a few other brands of sealants and never had a problem over M80.

[Andy M.]

Re: Will Zaino Z2 bond to M09 or M80?

Seeing as this is your first post on MOL, Welcome. I removed the link to zaino as you cannot post any links until you have reached thirty posts. Feel free to introduce yourself to the community in the Introduce yourself part of our forum.


Also please familiarize yourself with the Forum Rules and New Forum Privileges

Thanks
Andy M.
MOL Moderator