safest and best way to remove old wax?(PLEASE READ MIKE)

[Thejoyofdriving]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?

Well we don't teach that here on this forum, we teach people that it's foolish to make blanket statements like you have done. We teach people that they really don't know if the paint on their car is hard or soft until they go out into thier garage and work on it themsleves.

Don't believe everything you read on a forum. It's not always true.

Mike with all do respect i am getting annoyed by you. You have turned down factual information, it did not come from a thread it came from the mouths of the people that make my paint!!!! so i said to my self, well mike is a experienced guy maybe, just maybe that guy who wrote that was wrong. Well it turns out he was right. I have spoke to a few BMW technicals which have all told me the same thing," BMW CLEAR COATS ARE SOFTER THAN MOST U.S. CLEAR COATS DUE TO THE VOC REGULATIONS AND HIGHER SPEEDS ENCOUNTERED IN GERMANY, THERE FOR BMW HAS CHOSEN TO USE SOFTER MORE ELASTIC CLEAR COATS TO PREVENT CHIPING,AND CRACKING, THIS SOFTER CLEAR COAT IS MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO SWIRLS AND SCRATCHES." now you are a smart person mike, you must see pretty clearly now. So i was not just pulling this out of the air, i was not making a "blanket statement" I was not being foolish and you dont know every thing mike, you may no more than me but this time you went over the line saying what you said to me. Here are the facts from the people that know there stuff, people that actually work for bmw. We all make mistakes mike, because we are all human, at least i hope so. I use to tell people they were wrong and laugh at them and say haha, you are stupid you are wrong, but then, one day i made a real donkey out of myself, because it turned out the guy i was laughing at was right. So now i have grown up and i try not to say things like you said to me.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?

Mike with all do respect i am getting annoyed by you.

.

You know, we e-mailed you it was Sunday and we wanted to take the day off to have some offline time to spend with our family and not have to monitor every post you make.

Thejoyofdriving: It's time to push away from the keyboard...

[Mike Phillips]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?

Mike with all do respect i am getting annoyed by you.

Remember, you're a "Guest" on this forum, read Forum Rule #2

Consider yourself in time-out for a few days. If you come back and post before we restore your posting privledges then you will have banned yourself.

You have turned down factual information.

No I haven't. But soft is a relative word in relationship to paint. That's why we don't use blanket statements to describe the hardness or softness of the paint on any car.

We still wouldn't accept what we read about a paint system as the only real important factor is when the car is in front of you and you're working on it. That's when you're going to find out if the paint is hard or soft, not by someone's statement about it.

It's where the rubber meets the road to use a car related analogy.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?

Mike with all do respect i am getting annoyed by you.

Forum Rules

When Meguiar's Online when live in January 2004 our goal was to create an Online community for learning about car care and detailing. A place for "Car Crazy" enthusiasts to share and learn from the knowledge of others.

Meguiar's Online is a place for helping others. We pride ourselves on providing a friendly and polite community for constructive conversation.

Meguiar's Online Member Rules!

1. No personal attacks toward members or non-members will be tolerated.

2. No arguing with Moderators or Administrators.

3. You are welcome to disagree but you must be polite.

4. No bashing any company or their products. No bashing other people. If you can't say anything nice about someone, then don't say anything at all.

5. Keep language "G Rated", this includes insinuations. If you wouldn't say it in front of your grandparents, your parents or your children, then you shouldn't probably be posting to the Meguiar's Online forum.

6. Only appropriate pictures suitable for all audiences will be allowed, this includes avatars. If the photo is questionable at all it will be deleted without warning.

7. No commercial messages will be allowed. This includes web site links, phone numbers and email addresses. Commercial messages will be deleted.

8. Only one account per member! The only conceivable reason for multiple accounts, would be for fraudulent activity. You will be banned for this action immediately.

9. Continuously breaking the rules to disrupt the Online community will result in you being banned from the forum with little or no warning.

Signatures Rules:

No Clickable Links Allowed Outsidie of the MOL Forum
1. No Clickable Links Allowed to Commercial Websites
2. No Clickalble Links Allowed to Other Discussion Forums
3. No Phone numbers or Email addresses will be allowed. (*See exceptions below.)
4. No photos allowed, this option is not enabled.

5. Nothing rude, crude or impolite will be allowed

Justice for Breaking the Rules - Color Code:
We are human and we all make mistakes, however, there will be consequences for your actions as follows:

Blue = Polite warning via email or PM to remind you of the rules.

Green = Warning and Possible one-seven day suspension.

Red = You will be banned immediately with little or no warning.

Exceptions:

We stand behind our Moderators, if you are causing a problem for the Online community the above "Justice Rule Code" can be taken to the next level when appropriate.

*You may include your company name and your title in your signature as long as it is not a click-able link.

Reporting a Post, Photo or Member:

NOTE: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.

Please remember that as a member you do have the power to report a post, member or photo without becoming involved publicly. You can do this by hitting the report button under each member's name.


You will then be asked to give a reason for reporting the post, person or photo.

You are also welcome to send the Administrators and Moderators a PM to let them know of your concern.

Thank you for being a contributing member and following the rules,

[steini]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?(PLEASE READ MIKE)

Let's get back to topic, we're all mates here, right..

So just out of curiosity, how much of clear coat does a mild paint cleaner like DC Step1 or ScratchX remove? Is it indeed safe to use it every month for several years?

Cheers,
Simon

[gb387]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?(PLEASE READ MIKE)

Let's get back to topic, we're all mates here, right..

So just out of curiosity, how much of clear coat does a mild paint cleaner like DC Step1 or ScratchX remove? Is it indeed safe to use it every month for several years?

Cheers,
Simon

This should give you an idea: How much paint are you removing.

Sure the aggressive work such as wet sanding and rotary polishing did remove some clear coat... but using a PC with #83(the most aggressive via PC, and more aggressive than by hand) there was no measurable change in CC thickness as shown in post #3 in the above thread.

[TrufflePig]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?(PLEASE READ MIKE)

that's what i'm saying.

[TH0001]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?(PLEASE READ MIKE)

Wow, this thread is crazy....

A) German paints are generally HARD as hell. Germans have LESS stringent VOC regulations, BTW.

Ask any detailer who has experinece working on VW, Audi, BWM, or Mercedes-Benz paints.. GENERALLY they are a PITA to work because of thier hardness. Thier are exceptions to every rule, of course, but from others and mine experince they are HARD. This is why Menzerna produces special polishes to be used with the HARD German paint.

Porsche seems to be an exception though, and is generally soft.

B) The diminishing abbrasives in DC1 will NOT remove any measurable amount of paint, even used month after month for many years. I base this statement on an interesting test a friend of mine did on an Infiniti G35 (which generally has super soft paint). After making 3 passes of an aggresive polish with a meduim cut pad, his paint gauge was unable to notice an decrease in film build. I would figure that each of these passes was 1000's of times more abbrasive in nature then a hand application of DC1.

C) The safest way to remove wax? Let the car sit in a dust free, climate controled garage for several years...

[cherrycougar]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?(PLEASE READ MIKE)

Removing wax is a concept from the old days and with inferior products and it was only because the wax was junk that you'd even think about it. If your finish looks like **** it's because there hasn't been enough wax on it not too much. Heck I err on the lighter side on this one since I DON'T want to remove any and one of these days I'm going to have to clay and use a a cleaner wax like DC1 although I'm feeling more comfortable about the stuff after reading the info in this forum. For now though going through over a bottle of NXT a month isn't letting anything settle in the paint so it's all good for now at least

I've had some bad experiences with true abrasives like rubbing compounds and such with paint all over your cloth although I'm sure Meguiar's stuff is a whole lot less nasty

As for the hard and soft paint thing if your paint is soft then it stands to reason that you need to really be paying attention to keeping it clean. With that said I can't imagine having to clay and use a cleaner every month no matter how hard or soft it is. It's good to know though that a lot of folks don't believe this would do any harm though.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?(PLEASE READ MIKE)

Wow, this thread is crazy....

A) German paints are generally HARD as hell. Germans have LESS stringent VOC regulations, BTW.

Ask any detailer who has experinece working on VW, Audi, BWM, or Mercedes-Benz paints.. GENERALLY they are a PITA to work because of thier hardness. Thier are exceptions to every rule, of course, but from others and mine experince they are HARD. This is why Menzerna produces special polishes to be used with the HARD German paint.

Porsche seems to be an exception though, and is generally soft.

B) The diminishing abbrasives in DC1 will NOT remove any measurable amount of paint, even used month after month for many years. I base this statement on an interesting test a friend of mine did on an Infiniti G35 (which generally has super soft paint). After making 3 passes of an aggresive polish with a meduim cut pad, his paint gauge was unable to notice an decrease in film build. I would figure that each of these passes was 1000's of times more abbrasive in nature then a hand application of DC1.

C) The safest way to remove wax? Let the car sit in a dust free, climate controled garage for several years...

While it may well be true that Germany has less stringent VOC regs than the US (hey, you can buy M16 in Europe but not in the US because of this very reason) one simply can not make a blanket statement about paint hardness. I've seen several discussions about BMW paint being fairly soft, and even more about Mercedes being hard as granite. Both are German cars, so that alone would refute any claim that "German paints are soft".

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that BMW does indeed use "soft" clear coat. Define "soft". It's a relative term, especially when discussing paint hardness or, well, softness. Generally speaking modern clear coats are harder than single stage paint jobs were many years ago. Even then, so what? Oh, sure, a "softer paint" can be easier to remove defects from, but there is so much more to the equation than simply the relative "softness" of the paint.

• How "thick" is the clear coat?
• How aggressive of a polish are you using on it?
• How often are you using this polish?
• What method are you using to work the polish?

Again, for the sake of argument, even if BMW has exceptionally soft paint, keep this in mind. Even a fairly thin, soft clear coat, if worked on by hand with a very mild polish (like DC1) will likely last for as long as the owner cares to maintain it, and needs to maintain it.

We sometimes have a tendency to over think things a bit.

[veedub Mike]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?(PLEASE READ MIKE)

A) German paints are generally HARD as hell. ...

Wrong.

This is why Menzerna produces special polishes to be used with the HARD German paint.

Ok... everyone should be using Menzerna over here, shouldn't we?
Why don't we use Menzerna everyday in Germany?

Ask any detailer who has experinece working on VW, Audi, BWM, or Mercedes-Benz paints.

Why not ask a german detailer? Audi used a pretty hard paint system some 3-4 years ago. But they already came back to softer paint.
Ceramiclear paint from Mercedes is pretty hard though. But not every MB is painted with Ceramiclear.
To bring this to an end. We have soft and hard paints over here just like you do over there. You can't generally say german paints are always hard.

[steini]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?(PLEASE READ MIKE)

What about Volkswagen? Hard or soft?

Does it make a difference in choosing a product?

[Arne]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?(PLEASE READ MIKE)

Yesterday i was detailing a BMW 320 2001 mod.
I did several testspot with #80 ,#83 and #85 and the best combo was #85 with rotary and W4000 wool pad and then #80 with 8006 pad,so the pain on that car was very hard.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?(PLEASE READ MIKE)

What about Volkswagen? Hard or soft?

Does it make a difference in choosing a product?

Here's the deal... note the first two words, we'll make them bold...

Generally speaking modern clear coats are harder than traditional single stage paints. This means when you and I go out into our garage to work on our car's paint, (often times to remove swirls and scratches), we will find it more difficult to remove the swirls and scratches than it would have been for someone 20 and 30 years ago working on the factory paint on a 1965 Mustang.

That's why in the old days people were able to get away with using coarse abrasive products like rubbing compounds and polishing compounds and get acceptable results but today on modern clear coat paints these types of products just wont work, sure they'll remove swirls and scratches but they replace them with more swirls and scratches that are deeper than you were trying to remove.

Because removing swirls and scratches is one of the most common problems discussed on this forum the science of how to do this is often typed about in detail, this would include topics such as

Technique
Applicator material
Product choice
How the product works
Paint types - harder versus softer
Depth of defects
etc.


What we don't do on this forum is make blanket statements about how hard or soft the paint is on specific makes and models and we don't allow our members to do this also because the truth is, you don't know how hard or soft your car's paint is or isn't until you go out into your garage and start trying to remove some swirls and scratches using either your hand or a machine polisher.

If you are really good at working by hand or machine and you find it's very difficult to improve the surface of your car's clear coat let alone remove any swirls and scratches then you could draw from this that the paint is hard.

If you go out and apply a little ScratchX to the paint and without much sweat you find all the swirls and scratches being removed from your car's clear coat finish then you could draw from this the paint is fairly soft, at least soft enough that you with your hand were able to remove a little paint which is how your remove swirls and scratches.

The key here is this...

you don't know how hard or soft your car's paint is or isn't until you go out into your garage and start trying to remove some swirls and scratches using either your hand or a machine polisher.

That's where all the talking stops and the walking starts.

So as to your question?

What about Volkswagen? Hard or soft?

We don't know... we're not in your garage working or testing out a paint cleaner on your car's paint.


Do you detail cars a lot? As in restore neglected paint back to showroom new condition?

Or are you new to this?

The reason we ask is because technique is so important as it relates to results. We can't tell you how many people have come to our Saturday classes and mentioned they've tried ScratchX and it didn't work for them, then after going through the class and getting some Head Knowledge on how the product works followed by watching someone that knows the proper technique for effectively applying ScratchX apply it and remove swirls and scratches only to have them then make a comment like this,

"That's not how I was I applying it"

Hundreds of times is how often we hear this.


So paint hardness or softness is only one part of a larger equation and we don't make blanket statements as to whether the paint on your car is hard or soft because we're not there to be able to work on your specific car.

Check out the "Hot Topics" forum and see how many threads there on are using ScratchX to remove swirls and scratches and then thread through the threads to get a complete understanding as to why people get frustrated when they try to remove the swirls and scratches out of there car's paint.

Does it make a difference in choosing a product?

"No"

Because we teach the philosophy of,

"Use the least aggressive product to get the job done.


If your first product of choice doesn't work effectively enough or fast enough then you can always try something more aggressive.

[TH0001]

Re: safest and best way to remove old wax?(PLEASE READ MIKE)

Wrong.


Ok... everyone should be using Menzerna over here, shouldn't we?
Why don't we use Menzerna everyday in Germany?


Why not ask a german detailer? Audi used a pretty hard paint system some 3-4 years ago. But they already came back to softer paint.
Ceramiclear paint from Mercedes is pretty hard though. But not every MB is painted with Ceramiclear.
To bring this to an end. We have soft and hard paints over here just like you do over there. You can't generally say german paints are always hard.

No, right. I have detailed as many 100 german cars in last year and I am telling that, in my experience they are generally harder. Unless you are calling me a liar, you cannot proclaim I am wrong.

I don't use Menzerna to much either (though its a very nice product line), but I don't understand what you are implying with that question. I don't know why every german doesn't use Menzerna the same as you don't. Unless you are implying that you have asked every german detailer?

Of course I can't generally say that german paints are alway hard. I never said that. I said that generally german paints are hard. There is a huge difference in what I said vs. what you read. Maybe a lanauage barrier thing.