Exasperated with misinformation in other forums

[Mosca]

These are from the "Car Care" section of a well known forum. I've actually been told to cool it when arguing for some discretion in recommending solutions; I can't believe it, but there you are. These are some of the statements I've been railing against:

By a MODERATOR on the forum:

... just yesterday afternoon I used TILEX on a guy's badly stained tan top and it looks like new all over again.

Same guy:

People use SIMPLE GREEN on various parts of their cars while others continue to offer up how tests have shown it to be very corrosive to some metals.

(Simple Green themselves say not to use it on aluminum.)

(This gentleman, who claims to have won several Jaguar concours events, has also recommended Turtle Wax rubbing compound, both red can and green can.)

This is what I got in return for my efforts:

Tom... give it a break, please. We all get your concern and thank you for it.... Responsible posters (and I like to think I'm one of them) always include directions or caveots when they post about the use of a product that may not be mainstream. What people do or don't do with that information is not ours to manage here.

(This MODERATOR has never included a caveat or instructions along with his misinformation. The "Tilex" recommendation was presented in its entirety above.)

And now, I have to read this and hold my tongue:

Question:

My tan interior has gotten some dirt into it, and I can't seem to be able to get the spots out of my door panels and consol plastics. What products do you guys use to clean a tan interior? What works best? Thanks in advance for any help or advice.

Answer:

for tough spots i use goof-off. i water it down a little, just to be sure not to harm the surface.

"GOOF OFF" WILL DAMAGE THE VINYL!!!!!!

Yikes. I can't take it any more. All advice is treated as if it has the same value; experience with safe alternatives means nothing.


Tom

[Aurora40]

Tom, you can post your opinion in a reasoned way, and leave it at that. Readers are left to consider who's advice to take. If they want to take advice from someone who shouts the loudest, someone who suggests products they already own (and have under the sink!), or whatever, that's up to them.

I realize that's not really advice, as you already know that. And in reality it's not how any of us post. We all question other people, or forums would be pretty dry. But it sounds like you are at a point on that forum where you will either offend people, embarrass people, or get booted or something. Put your valuable opinion out there, and people will start to recognize that all opinions aren't equal.

[Shiny Lil Detlr]

Re: Exasperated with misinformation in other forums

Originally posted by Mosca
[B]These are from the "Car Care" section of a well known forum. I've actually been told to cool it when arguing for some discretion in recommending solutions; I can't believe it, but there you are.

Tom, don't feel bad in the least. I've been permanently IP banned from two separate forums for this EXACT SAME reason.

I mean seriously, when a site administrator asks if I'd be willing to head-up a car care section on their site, makes me a staff member, and then comes in and personally tries to derail my efforts by advising members to use dangerous products in very improper ways, (at the same time as stating that my information was WRONG) I don't know what to do. Admittedly, I did start flaming him publically for his stupidity, but it was deserved. I basically told him not to ask me to do a job if he didn't think I knew what I was talking about.

So, just FYI- don't expect many concours-level detailed Chevy Trailblazers or GMC Envoys any time soon.

[benhui86]

are these people the reason why i see so many not so old cars with severe clear coat failure and marred cars with owners that seem to care about their cars....

[Superior Shine]

Hey go put on another 24 coats of wax on your car and don't worry about the other forums!!! LOL!!

[Shiny Lil Detlr]

Originally posted by Aurora40
And in reality it's not how any of us post. We all question other people, or forums would be pretty dry.

There's a big difference between questioning people in the pursuit of intelligent discussion of facts, and being a complete @ss by starting a flame-war.

On "all-detailing, all the time" sites, we're all pretty much here for the same thing -- finding out what works the best and discussing the technical merits of products and methods, using experimentation and factual documentation to learn from each others' mistakes, opinions, and whatnot.

However, on other "car club" sites, where most of the discussion is either off-topic or technical-based, it seems that a majority of the people know little or nothing about car care, and don't know what's possible and what isn't. Therefore, to them, if they can make it look clean through luck, then what they're doing is THE BEST. And thus, they'll flame anyone who says that what their doing is potentially dangerous -- whether it is backed with fact or not.

To me, it's a VERY frustrating situation, because it's an attack on the reputations of those of us who are truly detailing enthusiasts (and essentially, are professionals in the field). It becomes a choice between either not posting at all, or posting with the intention of defending our honor at every little turn. Unfortunately, the largest majority of the time it is better just to steer clear of the "car care" or "show and shine" sub-forums on these sites, unless looking for comedic relief. Let the less-informed, and less-caring people do whatever they will, since they usually can't/don't listen to reason.

[Alex7938]

if that makes you mad you'll love this,
look for the post by spenspuma

http://shop.meguiars.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2057

[Shiny Lil Detlr]

Originally posted by Alex7938
if that makes you mad you'll love this,
look for the post by spenspuma
http://shop.meguiars.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2057

I hope that little troll got banned!

I'm sitting here laughing my hindquarters off at that thread.... and scratching my head at the British slang I can't really understand

[Alex7938]

Originally posted by Shiny Lil Detlr
I hope that little troll got banned!

I'm sitting here laughing my hindquarters off at that thread.... and scratching my head at the British slang I can't really understand

what bits you stuck on and i'll try and translate

[Mosca]

At the site I'm referring to, 99% of the people who read it never post; they do a search, take the info they want, and leave.

So some guy comes along and is looking for info on how to clean his convertible top, and sees that the Moderator used Tilex. And since when you use Tilex in your shower, you spray it on and leave it, the guy sprays Tilex on his top and then goes inside to have a sandwich, figuring to let the TILEX work for a while... but Tilex is a 2.5% solution of sodium hypochloride, chlorine bleach. Chlorine bleach will discolor pigments and make vinyl brittle; phonograph records are polyvinyl chloride with flex agents added. And over time chlorine bleach will destroy the stitching.

Or a guy sprays Simple Green on his engine and figures that if it's left on overnight it can get ALL that grease off the cam cover... Simple Green etches aluminum.

Or does the same thing with the Goof-Off and his vinyl interior... Goof Off is acetone, and vinyl is soluble in acetone.

Sigh. Specialized safe products are available for each of these jobs. Why would someone recommend something different?


Tom

[Mosca]

To answer my own question, I think they aren't thinking about the people they are trying to help. They are crafting an image for themselves as a maverick expert, someone who tweaks the nose of the establishment and gets results with common household products.

But it's false reality. 16 oz of convertible top cleaner costs the same as 16 oz of Tilex. Vinyl Cleaner costs essentially the same as Goof Off, and on down the line.

There's no reason other than to craft an image as a contrarian.


Tom

[sneek]

haha i was just about to buy simple green auto if it wasn't for bigpete giving me a bottle of extra wow i owe him lol

[Shiny Lil Detlr]

Originally posted by sneek
haha i was just about to buy simple green auto if it wasn't for bigpete giving me a bottle of extra wow i owe him lol

I use Simple Green Auto -- though very, very rarely, and never at full strength. I treat it kinda like acid wheel cleaners: they're ok to use, but you have to be VERY careful and stay focussed on the task at hand.

That's no different than the folks (myself included) who use a wollite/oxiclean/APC+/Water mix to clean carpets and upholstery. The "home brew" works great -- You just have to be sure to remove it with an extractor, shop vac, or blotting rags.

[Shiny Lil Detlr]

Originally posted by Mosca
To answer my own question, I think they aren't thinking about the people they are trying to help. They are crafting an image for themselves as a maverick expert, someone who tweaks the nose of the establishment and gets results with common household products.

But it's false reality. 16 oz of convertible top cleaner costs the same as 16 oz of Tilex. Vinyl Cleaner costs essentially the same as Goof Off, and on down the line.

There's no reason other than to craft an image as a contrarian.


Tom

I dunno if it's even that, though. It seems to me that in a lot of situations, people are out there using these products on their vehicles, and getting VERY LUCKY that they're actually fixing things without causing damage. They interpret this luck to mean that it must be the right product to be using... and will fight to the death that they know what they're doing (even after being shown the factual information about why it isn't a good idea).

There are lots of these "household" products which can do the job, but after using the product a few times you'll start to see that you're actually causing long-term damage. I have a neighbor like that, he used to swear by simple green for EVERYTHING. He was going to clean up his motorcycle wheels, which were a non-coated aluminum alloy. I told him not to use the SG on it, but he said "nah I've NEVER had a problem with it, it's the best." (He'd never tried cleaning aluminum, either...haha...) Well after paying $400 to replace the wheel he corroded, he now listens when I tell him that a product isn't safe, or won't provide the best results.

In my main field (Information Technology) we have a saying about some end-users who try to fix their own computer problems: "Knows just enough to be dangerous." Basically the same thing applies here: people know just enough about household cleaning and janitorial work/supplies, to think it must carry over to automotive detailing. Most don't realize that the materials used to build automobiles are MUCH more delicate than what you'll find in your house. "If it works in the kitchen/bathroom, it must be great on the car."

I learned my lesson on that after destroying the sidewalls on a set of tires.... someone a few years ago on Autopia posted a trick of using Dow's Scrubbing Bubbles to clean tires. Well, it turns out that it causes rubber checking in the sidewalls.

Alot of this whole thing comes down to the common sense that some folks seem to lack -- all it takes is some fundamental knowledge of basic chemistry. If something contains acidic or solvent-type ingredients, it is going to be harsh, often more harsh than an automobile can stand.

[Pete-FWA]

Tilex?

Thing is, it probably CAN get out some nasty stains (albeit, leaving worse problems behind.) Yes, many supposed detailers can find some wacky methods to getting the job done. Often times, it looks better than it did before, so they claim success.

Problem is when a few mos down the road, the damage shows through, the vinyl becomes brittle, the paint flies off the metal in a slight breeze while driving through a school zone

Another company here in town used to clean leather seating surfaces with lacquer thinner and steel wool. The guy had a drum of lacquer thinner in his shop-told me it was great for getting vinyl tops clean, too. He told me using cleaner and a stiff brush was just too much effort. Who doesn't like that strong, chemical smell eminating from your freshly cleaned Cadillac?

Their rags were certainly covered with stuff from the seats. Yeah, it was the freakin' dye from the seats! That company was a great source of business for us.

For those who don't and never will know the difference, that's just too bad. Hang in there: doing things "right" prevails in the end.