Wax war rages on.........

[Newport Viper]

Good to see things haven't changed...
Haven't had time to detail much. Work is very busy. Silicone myths still abound. No use fighting it, I guess. Can some one show me the link to common sense and silcone. I don't know where to find it.

Fun read here.....

http://vca2.viperclub.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB14&Number=525536&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#Post525943

[travisdecpn]

the only question I have after all of that is, who is McGuires?

[Tim Lingor]

Hey,

Here, this may help explain it.

19. Are products that contain silicone bad for my car's finish?

Tim

[Mark McGuire]

"the only question I have after all of that is, who is McGuires?"

travisdecpn, I guess that would be me.

[Aurora40]

It's odd that the same people bashing silicone are promoting Pinnacle... I'm really pretty sure that Pinnacle products contain silicone. They certainly aren't paint-shop safe. That said, I doubt a person could go wrong with Pinnacle, Zaino, or Meguiar's products.

Well it may seem that the voice of opinion in a thread goes one way and you can't do anything, I've found that typically if you just post a common-sense opinion, it actually goes a long way. There are lots of people who will read and not post, and you may find out a lot later that your one common-sense post made a difference for them, even though the tone of the thread doesn't reflect it.

But then again... Maybe the reason so many cars from the 80's have paint peeling off is not actually 20 years of sun, but rather 20 years of silicone...

[Mike Phillips]

When people spread rumors that silicone is harmful to automotive paint, they simply don't know what they're talking about, that or they have a hidden agenda.

It's true that silicone (and other products), can create surface tension and if not removed before painting fresh paint onto a car they will cause fish eyes, but any body shop worth their weight in beans knows that before paint a car you must first do the proper prep work to the finish which includes cleaning it from anything that would interfere with paint adhesion. People that make the statement that silicone is harmful to paint must not understand this, or have never had a car painted before.

Silicone is inert, it can't hurt anything. If someone is concerned about silicone in a product, then they should be concerned about any product, or polish that makes water bead up. This would include Zaino.

If the product makes water bead up, you can bet it will cause fresh paint to bead up, (if sprayed onto an unprepared finish), which will show up as fish eyes. (A fish eye is where the paint does not adhere because another ingredient on the surface is creating surface tension and will not allow the paint to coat over that area and instead will force it to pile up around the area causing what is referred to as a fish eye. This is more or less the same thing that happens, (only in reverse), when you see water bead up because of the ingredient used in the wax or polish formula creates surface tension on your car's paint.

Here's a simple experiment, apply some wax of your choice to a painted finish, and then spray some spray paint over it and watch what happens. If you see fish eyes, then what ever is in that formula would not be safe on paint, or in a fresh paint environment, if you plan on re-painting the car.

If fish eyes appear, then regardless of what's in the wax formula, the ingredients are causing the same problem some silicones could cause if the painter didn't properly prepare the finish before painting. This is the actually the entire misconception people have about silicone being harmful to paint. Silicone is inert, it doesn't harm anything. It does create surface tension and if it isn't removed from the surface before painting it will cause fish eyes, so will any ingredient that causes surface tension, and any true painter know this.

So all the folks that like products like Zaino because it beads water, or M16 Professional Paste Wax because it beads water, if they are going to have their car repainted, before the paint is sprayed on, they will need first properly prepare the surface to insure all traces of any substance that causes surface tension is removed. Again, any truly knowledgeable painter would understand this.

That's why the entire topic of silicone in a product is overblown and misunderstood. In today's age, any body shop or customer painter is aware that each and every car that comes into their shop has likely been around products that contain ingredients that cause surface tension, or had products that increase surface tension applied to them, this could be vinyl dressing sprayed onto a vinyl top, and the overspray drifting onto the paint. It could be the paint on a car such as this example was never waxed with anything, but the silicone found in another non-paint related product became airborne and landed on the finish thus creating the potential for a refinishing problem.

That's why any body shop or any painter worth a weight in beans understands that, because they don't know every exact detail about each and every car they work on, they need take the necessary precautions to prep the finish as though their could be a problem to insure there won't be a problem.

Meguiar's takes the high road, instead of scaring people into thinking silicones are bad or harmful, we try to educate people with common sense and the reality that if our chemists use any ingredient in any of our products, it for either the benefit of the user, or the surface the product is being applied to, otherwise our chemist wouldn't use the ingredient. Pure and simple.

By the way, some people reading this may not know it, but Meguiar's roots and history is in making products without silicone, this includes our very first products, furniture cleaners and polishes as Frank Meguiar Jr. was very adamant about not creating any re-finishing problems for the furniture industry.

When Meguiar's branched into the automotive industry in the 1920's, they carried this same philosophy into manufacturing automotive products, and that was, and to this day, is to create formulas that are body shop safe. That is they contain no ingredients that will create surface adhesion problems, i.e. wax and silicone. This is one of the reasons Meguiar's didn't come out with an automotive wax until after Frank Meguiar Jr. passed away in 1950. Think about it, M16 Professional Paste Wax, our first wax came out in 1951.

That said, for products that are not intended to be used on fresh paint, or formulated to be used in a fresh paint environment, our chemist use ingredients that help the product to perform at the highest level, otherwise they wouldn't include the ingredient. 100 years of being in this business substantiates this claim.

100 years of expertise in manufacturing products for use in the re-finishing industry and most of those years working with auto manufactures and paint manufactures, is about 100 years more experience than most of the products you see talked about on discussion forums.

There is no wax war, everyone is free to choose the product that works best for them and looks the best in their own eyes. When it comes to making that decision, sometimes you just have to decide who's name your going to give your trust.

To post on a public forum that silicone is detrimental to automotive paint is just plain ignorant at best and deceitful at worst.


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It's Sunday as I type this, a day of rest from the weekly grind to re-charge your batteries, enjoy your family and if you like... wash and wax your car with the product that you like best...




Have a great day everyone!

Mike

[travisdecpn]

Originally posted by Mark McGuire
"the only question I have after all of that is, who is McGuires?"

travisdecpn, I guess that would be me.

Haha, fair enough.

[RamAirV1]

Well said Mike!

RamAirV1

[Scottwax]

Why am I not suprised those loyal to one certain product have this attitude towards silicones?

[everglo]

Interesting that a little knowledge can be as bad if not worse than a lack of knowledge.

Mike, I've a question for you on this topic. What about touch up paint? Before one applies the paint should they "de-wax" the scratch/pit? Obviously wax will build up in and around scratches/pits so would its removal be necessary before an application?

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by everglo
Mike, I've a question for you on this topic.

What about touch up paint?

Before one applies the paint should they "de-wax" the scratch/pit? Obviously wax will build up in and around scratches/pits so would its removal be necessary before an application?

Yes, one should do their best to clean the affected area as well as possible before applying touch up paint. Rock Chip Repair Questions come up at almost every Saturday detailing class we have because for serious enthusiasts it is a difficult issue when it comes to their car's finish.