Whose fault is it, really?

[CieraSL]

OK, so here's the thing. I hear a lot of talk on here about how dealership "detailers" are, and how they mess up a car's finish, use crappy silicone dressing, this and that, blah blah blah. I ought to know - I've been working in the "detail department" of a Honda dealership for 5 years now. I know about (and admittedly, have used) the crappy brush in the one bucket on numerous cars, the dirty chamois, the applicator and towels that have been used for who knows what, the crappy compound that does about as much good as a Scotchbrite pad, the greasy interior dressings, the "detail" that got *rushed* because a salesman was in such a big hurry. Oh I could go on. We don't use any buffers though (thank God). But what I want to know is this: whose fault is it that this is the case? The detail guys? Maybe, but they have received little to no training, as I did. "Hi, ho, learn as you go, clean and shiny is all we know!" How are they expected to do a good job when nobody is willing (or knowledgeable enough) to teach them? Before I was fortunate enough to find car care forums such as Meguiar's Online and Autogeek, I thought I was doing a pretty good darn job myself. I thought I had good products in my "collection" (check out this thread - these were the non-Meguiar's products I had as of about 3 months or so after I joined MOL - All my detailing goodies/non-Meg's stuff - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online); it wasn't until after I got informed that I found out otherwise and gave away or otherwise sold the products you see in that thread, switching over to Meguiar's and later products from Autogeek. I had no idea about swirl marks until reading an article about them. Is it the managers' fault? Maybe, but they don't care about cleaning cars, they care about selling cars, and they want the quickest and cheapest route to get the car off their lot and into the customer's driveway. This maximizes their profit. Plus, they don't know about proper car care nor do they want to know. As I stated, they are a dealership, not a detail establishment. In my experience, most customers do not know about proper car care either. Is it then the customer's fault for failing to comprehend what the dealership detail has done to their car and not making sure it is done correctly? Perhaps it is the fault of all three parties. I just feel that it is rather unfair to accuse somebody of being stupid and uncaring when they use a brush or dirty chamois to clean a car, when they lack the knowledge and/or skill to do it properly. Or in my case, I have the knowledge and skill to do the job properly, but am not given the tools or the time in which to do so. For example, on a brand new car, say an Accord, we have about 30 minutes to:

1. pull the plastic from the interior (all the plastic on the outside and most of the plastic from the inside gets removed before the car goes on the lot)
2. vacuum the interior
3. wipe down the plastics either with a dry rag or a light citrus cleaner, depending on which one it needs
4. pull the floormats out of the plastic and put them down
5. remove the stickers from the windows and clean the inside windows
6. clean the face of the wheels, the tires, and the wheel wells
7. rinse the wheels and tires off and rinse the car down
8. wash the car with one bucket and a brush
9. rinse the car
10. blow out the main crevices and wheels and tires with the blower attachment from the vacuum
11. dry the car, including door jams
12. clean outside windows
13. dress the tires

Vans and SUVs take about 45 minutes. And for some salesmen, this is too slow. I know it takes me 1 and 1/2 - 2 hours to do a maintenance wash at home, and that's to do everything right. I can only imagine how well that would go over at the dealership. Do I feel guilty doing it the wrong way? Absolutely, but I know that most of the time, the salesmen, the managers, and the customers don't care. As long as it's clean and shiny, that's the main thing. I am just glad that our cars don't get treated that way. I could quit, but it is a job, and the person who takes my place will probably do a worse job than I do. So I am providing a need for a certain portion of the market. To me, it's kind of like calling the burger flipper at McDonald's an idiot because he doesn't know how to make a filet mignon. The fact is, he's not a professional chef, nor does he pretend to be one. He merely fulfills a need for the fast food consumer. Same with detailers/"detailers". Anyway, I've made this longer than I meant to, so I will stop there. So give me some feedback. What are your thoughts on this subject, and whose fault is it, really?

[Shawn T.]

Re: Whose fault is it, really?

Interesting.

I agree with pretty much everything there

No single party can ever be blamed for a problem.

[Tuck91]

Re: Whose fault is it, really?

Well,

It does not cost that much to keep fresh & clean materials on hand.

If the dealership just kept all washing/drying media clean and fresh & used at least basic wash sponges and mitts along with clean soap & water, then I believe less hacking would take place.

Common sense helps too, You dont drop a wash sponge on the ground then pick it up and scrub the hood of a car with it. But people are lazy and dont want to work and do things right, thats just how some people are.

I am suprised you have to used citrus based cleaner on the interior of a new vehicle. I would imagine that leaves a residue unless its wiped off with clean water?

As for your timing, I would say I could do it in that time but I would be working very quickly yet effectively.

Next time a salesmen tries to rush you, ask them if they want it done right or done right now???

Do the best job you can educating everyone.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Whose fault is it, really?

You know, if you took Shane's scenario and added Nick's common sense approach to it, things would probably be a whole lot better.

But as has been alluded to, it all comes down to education. Most people have no clue what a swirl mark is, that it's actually OK to use an abrasive product on the paint (oh, the horror!!!!!!), or that swirl marks and other fine defects can actually be removed.

At the dealership level time is money. Some dealers do a better job than others at prep, and some offer a pre delivery detail service done by guys who actually know how to do it right. But the majority of the consuming public just doesn't know any better simply because they haven't been educated. Just like Shane's burger flipper at Mickey D's is not an idiot because he can't make a filet mignon, you can't call the guys in the dealer prep department idiots if nobody teaches them how to do it properly. But if the dealer believes "good enough" really is "good enough", then things won't get any better.

[wifpd4]

Re: Whose fault is it, really?

This truly is one of those interesting discussions.

Shane is between a rock and a hard place. More knowledgeable than what his employer may wish or need. His employer, like many, needs productivity at a given price point to satisfy a customer, a customer with a certain level of expectations. Expectations often defined by the dealership or the industry, ie this is what is clean and shiny, enjoy what I give you.

Shawn is often more wise than his years indicate and he sums it up by saying, "No single party can ever be blamed for a problem.". You got that right Shawn.

Coming from construction background, in legal documents Nick would be described by me as a "workman". A skilled professional in his trade who performs his work in a "workman-like" manner. Timely, efficient, expert and cost conscious. Representing the best of his trade. Nick provides the "common sense" approach. Unfortunately, what is common sense, how do you get it and how is it applied to purchasing/selling a car at a mega-dealership?

Mr. Stoops represents what is best describe as the art instructor providing the secrets to the art, both from his experience, his training and very powerful resources. Who describes it best as "it all comes down to education". Which it most certainly does make up a huge component of this discussion.

I get to represent the consumer, who visits a dealership, has no clue what a "good" detail involves (other than what the dealership or sales person tells me) and accepts what I receive without question, because it seems to be the acceptable standard represented by most dealerships. I know no better. What is a swirl, what is DISO, and what is a paint cleaning compound/polish/glaze/wax and just vacuum the carpet and give me my car that I've been salivating over too long to wait for you do to it "right".

Shane you sure can't be held responsible. Whether you know it or not, you are already providing more service than your employer may want. You already are doing a better job than your associates, because you have been educated and know better. HOWEVER, if you do not perform to your employers expectations creating the level of product he/she wants at a particular price point, you are in jeopardy of receiving bad evaluations and reprimands. If however you can EDUCATE your employer and he decides to improve the end result, then more power to you. If you find another employer that understands quality, then even more power to you.

However, I'm pretty sure sitting in my comfy recliner, my judgement says you are not at fault. It's more of an industry fault and perhaps not a fault, just a lack of education.

Life is often a compromise and as much as we would prefer not to compromise, sometimes we may not have a choice or it is difficult at best.

[Mark McGuire]

Re: Whose fault is it, really?

David, very well put. I think you hit the nail on the head.

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Whose fault is it, really?

My first job was as a "lot attendant" at a local Ford dealer. I spent most of my time detailing, the rest moving and stocking cars.

I was young and knew very little about detailing, but I did know enough to realize we did more harm than good. I don't blame myself one bit - I was doing my job the way I was told you with the materials and time given to me by management.

The dealer owner and/or managers ultimately are responsible for the quality of work performed at the dealer. If they decide it isn't worth buying proper products and giving the "detailers" a proper education, then that falls 100% on them IMO.

FWIW, I really enjoyed my job... it was hard work...especially in the summer, but I had a great deal of fun, too.

[THE BIG BUFFER]

Re: Whose fault is it, really?

I wish I could find the magizine I use to show dealers. I would try to get the point across that their detailing dept was a mess. It had a quote from Barry Mequire that basicly said dealers want the best looking lots. The cars all shined up and looking better than the other dealers lot but most dealers hire people with no background or edcucation in detailing at all. Pay them the lowest wage in the dealership( some even less than the receiptionest) and throw them in the back corner with horrible lighting exspecting a brilliant shine on all their inventory.(end of my memory on the quote) Not gonna happen.
I just left a dealership. First time I worked full time for a dealership. I hated it. Exspecting a full detail on a crew long box duelly (black of course) that has been trashed by a welder. With the usual have it ready "a couple of hours he'll be here to pick it up"! Not a chance people!!! But you know even dealers have no idea what it takes to ploish a vehicle. They all still think it's wax on wax off kinda deal. Oh you have a polisher you should be able to whip 5 or 6 a day!! It's brutal in a busy dealership. No time to do it. Crappy products ( cheaper is better when they have to pay appently). and saleman who think you can deatail an entire vehicle in an hour.

I now polish for dealers but on my on time and my on space. Here's how much. Take it or leave it. When I get called for a polish the dlr knows he's getting a great job. He knows I need the car for a day. And he knows it will make him more money on the deal.
Who's to blame...simple. The dealer AND the customer. Not the detailer. Yes there are horrible detailers out there but most just don't know any different. Most arn't allowed to use the products they want. Most are considered by the sales people, managers and dealer principles as a "loss" to a deal rather than an added benifit.
I think there out to be a world wide detailer organization!!
Sorry for the ramble I've been polishing vehicles for an auction pretty much straight since Sun at 10 am. Just finished and am sooooo tired lol!
Want a job? Every detail job I see advertised says "no exsperance" required! Why? That is where the balme should start!!!

[Fly Bye]

Re: Whose fault is it, really?

the "detail" that got *rushed* because a salesman was in such a big hurry.

But what I want to know is this: whose fault is it that this is the case? The detail guys have received little to no training

You really have to ask this? How is this the customers fault? If you go and spend 20-40k on a new car, and some $10 per hour employee uses a scotch brite pad on the hood, how is this the customers fault???

Sure, the dealership is there to make money, and trust me, they're making money, but what does that have to do with the customer? I've known a Mercedes salesman, whom in past years, made $40k a month, every month. Whether or not the dealership is on a time constraint, or whether or not they're making money is irrelevant, as a customer is exactly just that, a customer.

If a new car owner (or an older car owner) details his/her own car on his/her own time, off of dealership property, (or on dealership property) and subsequently causes damage, whose fault is it? If you guessed the car owner, you would be correct grasshopper.

If I were to take my car into an auto dealership, or any place of business that details cars, and the dealership, or place of business subsequently causes damage...

How is this the customers fault????

[Fly Bye]

Re: Whose fault is it, really?


Not sure if I understood your question, as I don't normally try to analyze large, run on paragraphs, but,this would be the fault of management for not properly training their employee's, and ultimately, the dealership as as whole.

[BillyJack]

Re: Whose fault is it, really?

Great post Shane.
I've been in the retail car business for over 35 years, starting on the undercoat and detail bays and holding various positions through the years up to General Manager.

I've read numerous posts here condemning dealership and wholesale detailers and I've stayed away from my keyboard, since everyone's entitled to their opinion. The bottom line is that it's all about the bottom line. We do a fair amount of business in used Corvettes and for those vehicles the extra time and money spent for a more discerning detail is worth the expense. Most of the regular used cars and trucks on our lot are full of swirls and holograms, with shiny tires and engine compartments. If we gave every buyer the option to spend an additional $100-$200 for a true professional detail, I'd bet 99% would decline. For any business to prosper, it's a requirement that they tailor their goods and services to the values of their clientele. Most of the new and used car dealers do exactly that. The fact that their work won't stand up to the discerning eyes of obsessed wackos like us (myself included) is irrelevant, since we represent a miniscule proportion of the market.
Shane, unlike many here, you've walked your mile in the shoes of a dealership detailer. Keep knocking out those Accords in 30 minutes and spend your hours lovingly caring for your Ciera. You're doing what you get paid to do and probably doing it much better than most. If the average consumer only cared for the best goods and services to be had, administered by the most qualified employees, Sam Walton would be penniless.

Bill

[wifpd4]

Re: Whose fault is it, really?

For any business to prosper, it's a requirement that they tailor their goods and services to the values of their clientele.

Another nail gets hit on the head.

Thanks Bill

[griff8]

Re: Whose fault is it, really?

I am a novice detailer, really, but believe I have some good feedback for you.

When I used to wash my parents car at home I was doing everything wrong - I won't give the details here.

But the worst was the end of the wash where I would take the leftover wash water in the bucket and throw it on the car! What the **** was I thinking?!?!?!?!?! I didn't know anything.

It is all about training. When I learned about how to properly wash a car
it was at a funeral home. These guys were adamant that the hearse be washed after every funeral it was used on, even if it only went to the main cemetery in town a few miles away. They trained me - they showed me how to clean the tires, chrome wheels, vacuum interior, wash exterior, etc. They had the right products, a wash bay in the basement garage of the funeral home, and training. They took pride in the appearance of their vehicles and it paid off. Ever since then I have taken that knowledge and developed talents and skills for detailing. It has also paid off for me personally and at the new funeral home I started working at.

[THE BIG BUFFER]

Re: Whose fault is it, really?

I am a novice detailer, really, but believe I have some good feedback for you.

When I used to wash my parents car at home I was doing everything wrong - I won't give the details here.

But the worst was the end of the wash where I would take the leftover wash water in the bucket and throw it on the car! What the **** was I thinking?!?!?!?!?! I didn't know anything.

It is all about training. When I learned about how to properly wash a car
it was at a funeral home. These guys were adamant that the hearse be washed after every funeral it was used on, even if it only went to the main cemetery in town a few miles away. They trained me - they showed me how to clean the tires, chrome wheels, vacuum interior, wash exterior, etc. They had the right products, a wash bay in the basement garage of the funeral home, and training. They took pride in the appearance of their vehicles and it paid off. Ever since then I have taken that knowledge and developed talents and skills for detailing. It has also paid off for me personally and at the new funeral home I started working at.

[CieraSL]

Re: Whose fault is it, really?

You really have to ask this? How is this the customers fault? If you go and spend 20-40k on a new car, and some $10 per hour employee uses a scotch brite pad on the hood, how is this the customers fault???

Sure, the dealership is there to make money, and trust me, they're making money, but what does that have to do with the customer? I've known a Mercedes salesman, whom in past years, made $40k a month, every month. Whether or not the dealership is on a time constraint, or whether or not they're making money is irrelevant, as a customer is exactly just that, a customer.

If a new car owner (or an older car owner) details his/her own car on his/her own time, off of dealership property, (or on dealership property) and subsequently causes damage, whose fault is it? If you guessed the car owner, you would be correct grasshopper.

If I were to take my car into an auto dealership, or any place of business that details cars, and the dealership, or place of business subsequently causes damage...

How is this the customers fault????

It is the customer's fault for failing to educate themselves, and therefore accepting sloppy work as acceptable. You wouldn't pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a house that was poorly built, even if it was the nicest looking house on the block - why should you pay thousands or tens of thousands for a car that was treated like some dirty dish just because somebody wanted to save a few bucks at your expense? Most people assume that the detailers in a dealership have good tools and products and know what they are doing, when in fact the opposite is usually true. FYI, we use Auto Magic products/Tip Top products (local brand that is an Auto Magic equivalent). For a little bit more money, we could be using Meguiar's Detailer line of products. Therefore, the customer gets a poor job and doesn't realize it, so he doesn't say anything, and if the customer doesn't complain, the dealership will see no reason to change/improve how their detail department preps cars. Again, it is lack of knowledge and education that causes the problem. Knowledge is power.