Area 805 top secret testing begins!

[Kevin Brown]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!

...On shapes like this one wouldn't feedback circuitry deciding to increase power as you are getting into it actually be something what one does not want?

No, because it is designed to compensate and then adjust accordingly.
It was not designed to add speed above and beyond the dial setting.
Meaning, if I already have my speed dialed in and am happy with the results, it just helps to keep that speed consistent.

In other words, would feedback circuitry deciding to increase power as pad is getting into tight areas mean higher chance for coming in too aggressive?

Good question.
It could be considered too aggressive if there was a linear transfer of rotational speed (such as is the case with a forced rotation machine). In fact, the motion would be similar to that of the rotary. In terms of safety, this is one of the best things about the random orbital. Even if we could shoot bursts of 220 volts through the motor, not all of the current would be converted into torque (where the pad meets the paint) because pad rotation is NOT mechanical, it is free spinning.

It would be no different than if I decided to add 30 or 40 more pounds of pressure to the head of the machine. The machine would bog and basically jiggle in place. Pad rotation will most likely come to a halt immediately.

Whenever I have watched experienced detailers working I have seen them slow down their tools as they were getting into such areas, not speed up.

I don't know if you count me as experienced, but I am sure you remember hanging out with me for several hours at Alpine Electronics one quiet summer evening, 2008.
Recall the Volkswagen I polished via random orbital? I don't think there was a level panel on that Bug! During defect removal there were times I had to bump the orbit speed up in order to create more random pad rotation. If I had this machine, I would STILL have had to do some fudging of the dial, but not as much.

What I might be missing that makes not slowing down on such areas fine?

You are not one that misses much, Zoran.
Your vast experience with these types of machines gives you more insight than the average dude.
You have more questions because you are curious (and perhaps you are playing a role as an advocate for thorough information), but you also have answers to your own questions.
Once we figure out a way to make you WANT to transfer all that locked away info OUT of your head to your keyboard again... we will have you POSTING useful and insightful information like the days of old!

You can DO it Master ZZZZZZzzzzzz...!

[Hemin8r]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!

Great review Kevin.

[ZoranC]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!

Recall the Volkswagen I polished via random orbital? I don't think there was a level panel on that Bug! During defect removal there were times I had to bump the orbit speed up in order to create more random pad rotation. If I had this machine, I would STILL have had to do some fudging of the dial, but not as much.

Yes, I recall it. Do I also recall correctly that you did not polish that bug using G110, that you used PC?

[Kevin Brown]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!

Yes, I recall it. Do I also recall correctly that you did not polish that bug using G110, that you used PC?

Actually, it was a Meguiar's G100 (rebadged Porter Cable).

[Nappers]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!

whoops, put this in the wrong forum! ( I put my opinion of rep points in this.....too many tabs opened!)

Dang it!

on the other hand, I've been watching this one closely when I can between work, basketball practices/games for the freshman girl and what not.

Keep on writing Kevin!!!!

[Kevin Brown]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!

...On the other hand, I've been watching this one closely when I can between work, basketball practices/games for the freshman girl and what not. Keep on writing Kevin!!!!

Will do! BACK TO THE TASK AT HAND!

[Zeta Detail]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!


Kevin, thanks for this very interesting post and for sharing your knowledge with everyone else. I'm sure that all of us are anxious to read the conclusions of the test.

Soon it will be a year since Todd Helme coined the term "Kevin Brown method" (I think it was here), and you started talking about a paper about the dual action polisher that you were working on. I know that many detailers around the world are looking forward to reading it. Is the project still going on? I don't mean to put any pressure on you and I admire all your hard work, it's just that I'm curious if we'll actually get to read that paper.

[Kevin Brown]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!

Kevin, thanks for this very interesting post and for sharing your knowledge with everyone else. I'm sure that all of us are anxious to read the conclusions of the test.

You are welcome!
Ahhh... the results of the test. The exciting part is NOT the CONCLUSION, but instead WHAT thing or things we have been testing!

Soon it will be a year since Todd Helme coined the term "Kevin Brown method" (I think it was here), and you started talking about a paper about the dual action polisher that you were working on. I know that many detailers around the world are looking forward to reading it. Is the project still going on? I don't mean to put any pressure on you and I admire all your hard work, it's just that I'm curious if we'll actually get to read that paper.

Wow, you know your threads!
That is EXACTLY where it all started, simple as that.
Yes- I am zeroing in on things, bit by bit. Trying real hard to get it ready for a January release.
If I can wrap it in the next three weeks and get some final proofing done by some online pals, it'll be out on time!

But you know how bad I have been at meeting my deadlines... shameful!

[ZoranC]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!

Recall the Volkswagen I polished via random orbital? I don't think there was a level panel on that Bug! During defect removal there were times I had to bump the orbit speed up in order to create more random pad rotation. If I had this machine, I would STILL have had to do some fudging of the dial, but not as much.

Yes, I recall it. Do I also recall correctly that you did not polish that bug using G110, that you used PC?

Actually, it was a Meguiar's G100 (rebadged Porter Cable).

Still a PC underneath the skin, at least when it comes to power, and it is power of a tool part of a discussion is revolving around.

So, with PC (OK, G100) being actual tool used on car you brought up as an example of where feedback circuitry would have helped you do you feel you would have felt same way and said same thing if you have used machine with more power than PC (like G110, or PCXP, or Griot's V2), one that would not find panels of that Bug as much of a challenge?

Way I see it is if such a gentle radius panels like ones on Bug are presenting enough of a challenge to a tool chosen for a task then that tool is not powerful enough to start with and tool powerful enough to deal with average panels out there will not need automatic extra juice.

Way I see it _moderate_ variation in friction should not be presenting challenge to a tool chosen for task at hand (unless that tool is already pushed to operate one short step away from bogging down), and response to _serious_ variation in friction should be better left to human to decide on.

But if one desires to maintain high pressure on that tool and pad then I see why they would find moderate variation in friction a thorn in the method and thus find restoration of rotation through bump in the power delivery instead of simply backing off on a down pressure much to their liking.

In the end, as they say, there is more than one way to skin the cat, there is more than one path to a power, and there are also personal preferences, so I will leave it at that.

Either way personally I still prefer to be one in the driver seat, be the one deciding when to bump up or to bump down the power instead of tool deciding it for me for the same reason I prefer hand drill over the power drill for some tasks. Hand drill might be slower, less cool etc etc but when drilling close to a pipe with hand I can feel I touched the pipe, I can feel it's resistance (friction?) and stop before I go through it, with power one I would go through it in no time flat like a hot knife through a butter, like a rotary at 3000 RPM through clear coat, ... whatever the right analogy is.

[Kevin Brown]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!

...Do you feel you would have felt same way and said same thing if you have used machine with more power than PC (like G110, or PCXP, or Griot's V2), one that would not find panels of that Bug as much of a challenge?

I was not using the machine as the highest speed setting, so no.
I like the way a random orbital works. It relies on building centripetal force to spin the pad, so if I am on speed setting two, for example, the machine will not be creating very much rotation. That is fine- it is not necessary to have high rotational speed to remove ALL defects. That bug was single stage paint and pretty soft by today's standards. No need for 7 amps, 850 watts, 10 rotations per second on that paint.

If we were to compare a two identical pads, except one was larger in diameter than the other, the large one would obviously contact the panel with more surface area. It makes a big difference. So does the pad type.

...Way I see it is if such a gentle radius panels like ones on Bug are presenting enough of a challenge to a tool chosen for a task then that tool is not powerful enough to start with and tool powerful enough to deal with average panels out there will not need automatic extra juice.

The G100 handled that vehicle just as I expected it to- no problem.
It was the same machine that allowed me to pull 800 and 1000 grit sanding marks off the edges of the Imprint RLS. You stopped by for that one, too:

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25530

Same with the Alpine Sport Boat:

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21186

...Way I see it _moderate_ variation in friction should not be presenting challenge to a tool chosen for task at hand (unless that tool is already pushed to operate one short step away from bogging down), and response to _serious_ variation in friction should be better left to human to decide on.

The random orbital was designed to alter its pad rotation continuously, which is what I wanted it to do.
If I wanted full-time rotation, I would use the rotary.

... But if one desires to maintain high pressure on that tool and pad then I see why they would find moderate variation in friction a thorn in the method and thus find restoration of rotation through bump in the power delivery instead of simply backing off on a down pressure much to their liking.

Pressure is applied sometimes to force the abrasive particles downward so that they can cut deeper into the paint. Other times, it is done simply to conform the pad to the panel so that the abrasives can do their job.

...Either way personally I still prefer to be one in the driver seat, be the one deciding when to bump up or to bump down the power instead of tool deciding it for me...

I know what you mean.
Is it really much different than locking the trigger on a rotary buffer?
If it is locked on, then the user must adjust angles and pressure and amounts of liquid, so in that regard the user is still controlling the situation.

...for the same reason I prefer hand drill over the power drill for some tasks. Hand drill might be slower, less cool etc etc but when drilling close to a pipe with hand I can feel I touched the pipe, I can feel it's resistance (friction?) and stop before I go through it, with power one I would go through it in no time flat like a hot knife through a butter, like a rotary at 3000 RPM through clear coat, ... whatever the right analogy is.

Like stopping a car on the road versus a boat in the water.... ...or something like that.

Anyway- GREAT POINTS AND FEEDBACK! Keep it coming!!

[ZoranC]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!

I was not using the machine as the highest speed setting, so no.
...
That bug was single stage paint and pretty soft by today's standards. No need for 7 amps, 850 watts, 10 rotations per second on that paint.
...
The G100 handled that vehicle just as I expected it to- no problem.

If G100 handled that Bug as you expected without any problem, without highest setting, and without need for extra power, then why are you offering that vehicle and that polishing session as an example of situation where feedback circuitry adding power would result in benefit?

Those seem conflicting statements to me.

Or that bug and that session are not a good example?

If they are not a good example then we are back to square one of looking for answer on question "Could you please give me one _good_ example of panel where one would benefit from feedback circuitry restoring rotation slowed down by shape of panel _and_ that one would not be able to achieve through other means without the circuitry, and what about it makes it still as safe for situations in which bogging down acted as "safety feature"?"

I mean, you seem pretty excited about it so I am sure there must be a reason why you are. And you know me, I will not get excited over something and be sold on it without being given solid reason.

Can you sell me on it, please?

P.S. In post above you say "The random orbital was designed to alter its pad rotation continuously, which is what _I_ wanted it to do.".

Are you saying that you have designed G110 V2 or at least contributed to / influenced it's design and/or feedback circuitry part?

[SHYNEMAN123]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!

Just to put my 2 cents in.

The greatest enemy a elecrtic tool has is HEAT , Heat over time is what will make you reach into your pocket to replace an electrical tool.

Tools are designed to run within a specific speed range to allow for proper cooling for tool life when the tool slows down the heat goes up. Electric motors are designed to operate on a 40 deg ambient heat rise meaning the temp of the motor can reach 40 deg. higher than the surrounding temperature. So on a 80 deg. day you might not want to lay your hand on a motor.

My 15 year old Flex LK603 VE Rotory has electronic feedback and with over 2000 buff jobs to it's credit and my heat control method thats a very big reason it's still on the job today.

By Varying Voltage with load you maintain constant Torque or turning force in the tool.

[Zeta Detail]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!

...My 15 year old Flex LK603 VE Rotory has electronic feedback and with over 2000 buff jobs to it's credit and my heat control method thats a very big reason it's still on the job today...

I own an AEG PE 150 (same as Milwaukee AP 12 QE) and it gets incredibly hot very quickly. Frank, could you elaborate on that heat control method of yours? Thanks.

[SHYNEMAN123]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!

I own an AEG PE 150 (same as Milwaukee AP 12 QE) and it gets incredibly hot very quickly. Frank, could you elaborate on that heat control method of yours? Thanks.

My pleasure

Keep the tool vents intake and exhaust clear from wool pad fibers and dust
After every panel buffed I run the tool no load at 2000 rpm give or take to allow max air flow to cool it down
Remove and inspect the brushes, if worn below half, replace,The commutator that the brushes rides against should be chocolate brown.Do not touch the comm. with fingers, oil in skin can cause premature brush failure some what like on head light bulbs
With brushed removed blow tool out with compressed air but only around 40 psi, Rotate spindle for max cleaning.
This may seem much at first but once it becomes habit it's a breeze.
Keep grease in gear head clean and fresh, If a tool sits to long grease hardens and does not lube the gears causing increased friction and load on the tool creating more heat.

Tools very but most have 4 bolts and maybe a snap ring holding drive spindle in which makes for pretty easy access to gears and grease.

Hope this helps

PS. make sure you have proper voltage to the tool, cord length and size are very important.

[Kevin Brown]

Re: Area 805 top secret testing begins!

If G100 handled that Bug as you expected without any problem, without highest setting, and without need for extra power, then why are you offering that vehicle and that polishing session as an example of situation where feedback circuitry adding power would result in benefit? Those seem conflicting statements to me. Or that bug and that session are not a good example?

I think you misunderstood the answer. I could discuss any vehicle I have done with a random orbital, but you were there when I did the Bug.
I thought I might be able to tap in to your minds eye. Nevertheless...

The feedback circuit works great on the lower speed settings, too.

If there is not enough centripetal force being generated to keep the pad spinning, the user must normally either:

A) Increase the orbit speed on the machine by adjusting the speed dial
B) Minimize friction between the pad and paint surface, which might be accomplished by : adding buffing liquid, implementing use of a secondary wetting agent, changing the pad type or size, decreasing the footprint of the pad that is contacting the paint surface, or adjusting the angle of attack

So, even at a VERY slow speed setting, the G110v2 will benefit pad rotation.

If they are not a good example then we are back to square one of looking for answer on question "Could you please give me one _good_ example of panel where one would benefit from feedback circuitry restoring rotation slowed down by shape of panel _and_ that one would not be able to achieve through other means without the circuitry, and what about it makes it still as safe for situations in which bogging down acted as "safety feature"?"

The random orbital was originally designed to create random rotation so that the machine's sanding action would minimize very noticeable sanding patterns.
It was not designed to create random rotation in order to increase user safety. The fact that it benefits paint polishing in the manner you describe is a plus!

As for your question pertaining to "one would not be able to achieve through other means without the circuitry"... see the A and B from the last question because the v2 would help the user in that these adjustments would not need to be made as often.

I mean, you seem pretty excited about it so I am sure there must be a reason why you are. And you know me, I will not get excited over something and be sold on it without being given solid reason. Can you sell me on it, please?

One of the great things about Meguiar's is their satisfaction policy.

If you decide that you like it better than the new Griot's machine you purchased a while back, keep it.
If you decide you do not like it better than the new Griot's machine you purchased a while back, return it.
Isn't that a sweet deal?

P.S. In post above you say "The random orbital was designed to alter its pad rotation continuously,
which is what _I_ wanted it to do.".
Are you saying that you have designed G110 V2 or at least contributed to / influenced it's design and/or feedback circuitry part?

No, especially considering we were discussing the G100. The G100 does not feature the feedback circuitry that you have been referring to.

Zoran- you are the Master of multiple questions sans commas.