Paint question

[3Fitty]

I was reading a post about orange peel and it made me ponder something which I have NO clue about and maybe some of our experts can chime in.

I have always believed (probably incorrectly) that factory paint jobs were the pinnacle of car paint. So my question is a basic one...

Supposing I went to a very high end auto shop for a high end paint job, is it possible for an after market paint job to be as good or better than factory paint?

Let's say my IS350 gets vandalized terribly and I decide I need a new paint job. Instead of matching the paint, I decide I'm going to repaint the entire car from white to blue. Can I get a blue paint job that would be better than the Lexus factory paint?

[03mach1]

Re: Paint question

It cost a lot of money. Because the body shop would have to repaint the door jams, the inside of the trunk the under side of the hood. There are a lot of places to repaint if you want a complete transformation from white to blue. You can get it done, probably as good or better then factory but it will cost thousands of dollars.
people were asking me what color I am painting my Bird and I said original color and they said why well it will be cheaper to repaint the original color.

[Nappers]

Re: Paint question

I would agree.

But it can be done.

I saw a Camaro get painted from White to yellow (which wasn't offered) and it turned out beautiful, door jambs, behind door panels, hatch areas, etc was painted to match, they even took off the plastic bumpers, it sure looked factory. The paint was laid down so well that orange peel was non existant.

I had a 96 Nissan hard body and the doors were messed up and they ordered new doors and had a local company paint it. I was leary at first but they matched it so well and it looked so good, couldn't even tell. Also they got the doors sealed so well that you had to crack a window to close it or pop your ears. My buddy at work said wack a few deer and that'll fix it. LOL he hit 4 in like 5 years in the same truck.

[RaskyR1]

Re: Paint question

I've done a color change on 2 of my cars now...and the paint was WAAAAAY better than factory. It's a lot of work and time disassembling the car and would be very expensive to pay someone to do it.

Sorry for the scanned in pics....my Monte was pictured in Car Craft Dec 1998.

[the other pc]

Re: Paint question

There is no magic in a factory, any factory.

There are processes, people performing processes and automated machines performing processes created by people.

A car company will routinely devote vastly more time and money to buying equipment, developing techniques and adjusting paint formulas than any custom shop can possibly imagine. But that company must also balance those advantages against material costs, production speed, operator training/capability and other mass market influences (read that cost, cost and cost).

The upshot of the outcome is that factories never even try to get the best (looking) finish possible. They shoot for the lowest cost finish that most customers will be happy with.

In practical terms, factory finishes are almost always better than the vast majority of aftermarket work, but don’t approach the quality of really high-end work done by the best craftsman.


PC.

[3Fitty]

Re: Paint question

Thanks for the replies. It has brought up more questions...

Rasky... what, in your opinion, made the paint job way better than a factor job? (Oh and thank you for the pictures. If anyone else has some pics of a "high end" after market paint job, I'd love to see them).

PC,

What would make a really high end job better than a factory job? Assuming all things are equal, lets say we pick blue metallic as our color of choice.

Would the high end factory have a better shine? More slick? No orange peel? I'm trying to figure out the difference.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Paint question

Here's one thing to consider...

Unless the finish quality coming out of the paint booth is so high that the paint jobs don't need to be sanded and buffed, then...

"It doesn't matter how great the painter is, it's the guy that does the
wet-sanding, cutting and buffing that makes or breaks the paint job"

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Paint question

Sweet...



Always like the early Mote Carlo's...


My son wants me to paint our Jimmy black... ugh... so much work to remove every little bit of red paint off the truck and if you don't remove it all, anytime you get a chip or other defect the red will show up...

[3Fitty]

Re: Paint question

"It doesn't matter how great the painter is, it's the guy that does the
wet-sanding, cutting and buffing that makes or breaks the paint job"

Mike,

On account of my own ignorance with regards to painting, I'm not sure what this really means. Do you mean that EVERY aftermarket paint job, the paint is "wetsanded, cut and buffed"?

If so, suppose I go to a average to below average painter, but the guy wetsanding, cutting and buffing is off the charts good... will I come away with a good pain job.

*As an aside... I'm not thinking of doing this, I'm just curious and trying to figure this stuff out.

[RaskyR1]

Re: Paint question

Thanks for the replies. It has brought up more questions...

Rasky... what, in your opinion, made the paint job way better than a factor job? (Oh and thank you for the pictures. If anyone else has some pics of a "high end" after market paint job, I'd love to see them).

PC,

What would make a really high end job better than a factory job? Assuming all things are equal, lets say we pick blue metallic as our color of choice.

Would the high end factory have a better shine? More slick? No orange peel? I'm trying to figure out the difference.

Factory paints are thin and full of orange peel, or at least most are. I was able to apply enough material to allow the paint to be sanded to the point where there was no orange peel. Plus I still had plenty of material left for future corrections. That is the biggest difference IMO. I found my paint to be more chip resistant than most too. I did go for the expensive high solids clear though....makes a difference, or so I'm told.

Sweet...



Always like the early Mote Carlo's...


My son wants me to paint our Jimmy black... ugh... so much work to remove every little bit of red paint off the truck and if you don't remove it all, anytime you get a chip or other defect the red will show up...

Thanks!

Yeah, it was a lot of work stripping all the factory paint off. I chose the liquid stripper route on both cars, I wanted to have the Monte bead blasted but it wasn't in the budget. I was happy to find out that my car was a virgin. Only bondo I found was on the factory seem in the quarter panel.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Paint question

Mike,

On account of my own ignorance with regards to painting, I'm not sure what this really means. Do you mean that EVERY aftermarket paint job, the paint is "wetsanded, cut and buffed"?

No, this is just in the context of paint jobs that 'are' wet-sanded, cut and buffed. I've seen first hand cars that have come out of a paint booth with a flawless finish but most have DIP which stands for Dirt In Paint, that is little particles that land in the paint while it's wet, and orange peel as well as runs and sags.

If it's a production/inexpensive paint job it could go out the door like that. If the customer has asked for and paid for a higher quality job then someone, usually the "Painter's Helper" or the in-house detail guy will sand and buff the paint but this is usually a hack job as in quickly sanded and quickly buffed enough to make the work acceptable to the untrained eye. A hand glaze will be applied to fill in the swirls but as everyone that reads forums knows this is a temporary fix and after a few wash jobs the glaze will wash off and he swirls will appear. Under close examination you will usually see sanding marks that were not completely buffed out.

There's HUGE difference between sanding down a paint job and buffing it out and correctly sanding down a paint job and correctly buffing it out. Anyone can run a rotary buffer over sanded paint and make the paint shiny again, it takes skill, professionalism, experience, good lighting, great products and a lot of work to remove all the sanding marks and NOT burn through the paint anywhere.

It's really a very hard job and a dirty job to and done correctly takes days, not hours. That's why you don't get this kind of work unless you're really paying for it and discussed this ahead of time and everyone understands what the expectations are and it's established the guy doing the sanding and buffing TRULY knows what he's doing. You can't get professional results from just any guy that can turn on a rotary buffer and move it over the paint.

If so, suppose I go to a average to below average painter, but the guy wet-sanding, cutting and buffing is off the charts good... will I come away with a good pain job.

Yes. As long as the painter sprays enough clear. With enough film-build a good technician can save a horrible paint job, horrible as in runs, sags, DIP and Orange Peel.

This is why some guys can paint a car in their garage with a roller and can of paint and turn out a pretty good paint job, the secret is in how well the paint is sanded and buffed. As long the panels are correctly prepped and painted and there's enough paint to work with, you can hypothetically take what's there and turn out a really nice looking paint job.

*As an aside... I'm not thinking of doing this, I'm just curious and trying to figure this stuff out.

Your questions are likely questions others would like to read answers to but don't post them for whatever their reasons or they're just Lurking...

[seth1066]

Re: Paint question

For a lot of reasons, factory paint will always be superior to any commercial body/paint shop product. In a factory, the entire process from prepping the bare metal to the final paint application is rigorously controlled. Robotic arms lay all coats from primer on in a near flawless fashion. The newest technology is paint atomizers or bells instead of spray guns. The body and panels are electrically charged for paint adhesion. The paint itself is continuously fed and is mixed without human intervention. Dust is practically non existent. Due the lack of interior or any other components, the body can be baked at higher temperatures. Other than the factory, the highest quality body and paintwork I have seen (other than boutique and artisan places like restoration shops) comes from Mercedes-Benz stateside port facilities where the fix shipping damage. All makes have an equally high quality post manufacture division to take care of any defects.

If you spend the money there are true craftsman out there who will give you a near flawless finish. I'm thinking that a starting point would be at least $10,000 for a near perfect single stage total repaint in the original color. The price would be higher for 2 and 3 stage paint. A color change brings on much more additional labor depending on how far you want to take it. On one end, a concours level of color change would mean disassembling most of the vehicle.