Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

[Tim Lingor]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

Personally I don't use P mode. My subjects don't move fast (or at all) so 99% of the time I am in A mode as I prefer controlling DOF.


I understand what you mean. It is a (re)learning process for me.


Yes, however I have this nagging feeling there is something else at work when it comes to wheel section of Nick's shots. Regardless of which aperture he uses those wheels should be within focus so softness should not be due to focus. I have this nagging feeling either his Canon is not focusing correctly (which could be possible due to all those reflective surfaces) and DSC-H1 did not have problem focusing (actually, DSC-H1 is famous for extremely accurate focusing even in dark) or kit lens are soft or something else is at play.


You are correct, DSC-R1 is only bridge camera that uses APS-C sensor and lens in it are practically very high grade DSLR lens.


I am still contemplating that and for those reasons I am very tempted with Canon 40D and Pentax K20D. I will very probably wait at least until PhotoKina is over if not after PMA in January as I am not in rush so I can afford to wait and have time work for me. It's not like I don't have anything else to do in the meantime. Like actually learn how to use these things. And to do that I don't need another one, DSC-R1 will do just fine.


I will once I am ready to get embarassed, you guys have set the bar pretty high

There could be something wrong with the camera, but then again, the pictures of Nick's cat look fine. I think it is a combo of things, but I would bet it is the lens more so than anything. Plus when you look at his EXIF data, Nick is using way too low of shutter speed when he was taking pictures of his van. So I am thinking it is motion blur and is shooting too wide open more than focusing issues. I also suggested that he switch the camera to center point focus as allowing the camera to do it when taking pictures of reflective items, may throw the camera off a little.

I do not use P mode either. I did in the beginning but now mostly shoot Manual or Av mode.

I know what you mean. I am waiting to see the rumoured Canon 5D Mark II if that actually happens!

What bar? I too am a little embarrassed about posting photos as I am not sure how mine are either. It was Kevin Brown who persuaded me to actually post them! It is a learning process and if we all can help each other to achieve better pictures, then it is great idea to post them!

Tim

[PorscheGuy997]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

Wow! So much good information in this thread. Even though I use a Nikon, it's still helpful to read through the advice.


I've just been slowly working in the manual adjustments starting with the ISO.

[seth1066]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

Look at the trees and background on upper right of the very first two pictures in this thread. Also notice the contents of the garage in both pictures. The majority of the difference in the two shots is the exposure.

[Tim Lingor]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

Look at the trees and background on upper right of the very first two pictures in this thread. Also notice the contents of the garage in both pictures. The majority of the difference in the two shots is the exposure.

Please do not bold things like that as we do not want this to turn into an argumentative thread. Sure, I agree there is exposure problems but that has nothing to do with it being blurry as it has to do with the depth of field as the first picture was shot at f4. Using f11 and adjusting the exposure compensation will bring out the clarity, would you not agree?

What are shooting with?

Tim

[seth1066]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

Please do not bold things like that as we do not want this to turn into an argumentative thread. Sure, I agree there is exposure problems but that has nothing to do with it being blurry as it has to do with the depth of field as the first picture was shot at f4. Using f11 and adjusting the exposure compensation will bring out the clarity, would you not agree?

What are shooting with?

Tim

I was just reiterating the original problem. The original post was the difference between his old camera and his new camera, the specific complaint was, "Why does the new camera come out looking so soft?"

I don't think he meant "soft" as the word is used among photographers, but, as you mentioned early on, the saturation levels. I believe this to be solely an exposure issue as his flash shots had plenty of saturation.

I would tripod and reshoot the van from -2 to +2 in 1/2 stop increments, compare to auto mode and see where his metering is defaulting at. That said, it may be only a matter of what the metering was looking at in each of those van shots; you can see the third shot in that post is well saturated and I would think the metering (in that 3rd shot) was of the van body only, making for a good exposure. I wonder if the in-camera histogram for those shots would be instructive for future use.

I have been shooting film since the early 60's, switching to SLR's in '73, currently my sole digital camera is a P&S Canon S80. I'm in the hunt for a Nikon D200, now that they can be had for around $1000 new. The new D700 is tempting, I would love to have full frame, but a little pricey at $3K right now.

[Tim Lingor]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

Here is a screen shot (a poor one at that as I had to photograph my monitor which is not good idea but had no choice) of the histogram of the first shot. As you can see it is not over-exposed and if anything it is about 1/3 underexposed. On the far right you can see that his highlights are blown out but otherwise, the curve looks pretty decent.




Perhaps Nick should explain what he is referring to in regards to his pictures so that we can make sure we are all talking about the same issues...

Tim

[ZoranC]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

There could be something wrong with the camera, but then again, the pictures of Nick's cat look fine. I think it is a combo of things, but I would bet it is the lens more so than anything. Plus when you look at his EXIF data, Nick is using way too low of shutter speed when he was taking pictures of his van. So I am thinking it is motion blur and is shooting too wide open more than focusing issues. I also suggested that he switch the camera to center point focus as allowing the camera to do it when taking pictures of reflective items, may throw the camera off a little.

My inexperienced eye does not see any signs of motion blur because edges of objects even though soft seem to be consistent. My gut feeling is that camera is just fine and that it is, like you said, combination of few things, like difference in design approach, focus of Canon maybe slightly thrown off by reflective surface, and kit lens in XSi being bit on soft side both in general and in particular when compared to DSC-H1 (I am not aware of any manufacturer offering their sharpest lens as part of value bundle as it costs much more to produce sharp glass for DSLR size than one for bridge and often bridge has very sharp setup as it is easier for manufacturer to produce it).

I feel this might be confirmed when comparing same scene taken by DSC-H1 vs. XSi:

http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/canons2is/samples/comparedto/SonyH1_ISO64_F5.JPG

http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/CanonEOS450D/Samples/Comparedto/450D_100.JPG

... and when comparing samples taken with DSC-H1 to those of XSi:

http://www.dpreview.com/gallery/sonydsch1_samples/

http://www.dpreview.com/gallery/canoneos450d_samples/

I am waiting to see the rumoured Canon 5D Mark II if that actually happens!

That one is way out of my price range, there is no way (at this moment) I would be able to justify it, even 40D and K20D are a pretty big stretch for me.

Plus I have put DSLR candidates in front of pretty tall order: For me to consider spending more on them than my DSC-R1 cost they need to perform significantly better than DSC-R1.

Here are somewhat controlled K20D vs. DSC-R1 shots:

http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/PentaxK20D/Samples/Comparedto/pentaxK20D_ISO100-acr.jpg

http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/SonyDSCR1/Samples/Compared/Studio/RAW/dscr1_iso0160-raw-acr.jpg

... so at base ISO I do not see enough incentive to get DSLR especially because DSC-R1 has F2.8 at effective 24mm.

At high ISO I do not have almost any samples for both that could be used for apple to apple, but from what I see K20D looks much better. However, to meet or beat F2.8 at 24mm is very expensive ($500 to meet, $1,000 to beat just for lens) so I will have to think very carefully what I want to achieve and what I will do, especially because it is easy to wander off and forget there is more than one thing at play and things can be handled in more than one way, starting with KISS (carbon fiber monopod/tripod costs much less than DSLR setup).

[VoicesInMyHead]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

Totally forgot I had this online tutorial bookmarked! Doh!

Good place to Start.

[ZoranC]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

I am referring to his post # 3 while looking at his wheels and fact that in "before" you see mesh behind the glass, in "after" you don't.

But before we continue it would be helpfull if he could post link to full copies of files as they came out of camera, doing analysis on already pp-ed (downsampled etc) pictures is doing an analysis on polluted data.

[Tim Lingor]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

My inexperienced eye does not see any signs of motion blur because edges of objects even though soft seem to be consistent. My gut feeling is that camera is just fine and that it is, like you said, combination of few things, like difference in design approach, focus of Canon maybe slightly thrown off by reflective surface, and kit lens in XSi being bit on soft side both in general and in particular when compared to DSC-H1 (I am not aware of any manufacturer offering their sharpest lens as part of value bundle as it costs much more to produce sharp glass for DSLR size than one for bridge and often bridge has very sharp setup as it is easier for manufacturer to produce it).

I feel this might be confirmed when comparing same scene taken by DSC-H1 vs. XSi:

http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/canons2is/samples/comparedto/SonyH1_ISO64_F5.JPG

http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/CanonEOS450D/Samples/Comparedto/450D_100.JPG

... and when comparing samples taken with DSC-H1 to those of XSi:

http://www.dpreview.com/gallery/sonydsch1_samples/

http://www.dpreview.com/gallery/canoneos450d_samples/

That one is way out of my price range, there is no way (at this moment) I would be able to justify it, even 40D and K20D are a pretty big stretch for me.

Plus I have put DSLR candidates in front of pretty tall order: For me to consider spending more on them than my DSC-R1 cost they need to perform significantly better than DSC-R1.

Here are somewhat controlled K20D vs. DSC-R1 shots:

http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/PentaxK20D/Samples/Comparedto/pentaxK20D_ISO100-acr.jpg

http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/SonyDSCR1/Samples/Compared/Studio/RAW/dscr1_iso0160-raw-acr.jpg

... so at base ISO I do not see enough incentive to get DSLR especially because DSC-R1 has F2.8 at effective 24mm.

At high ISO I do not have almost any samples for both that could be used for apple to apple, but from what I see K20D looks much better. However, to meet or beat F2.8 at 24mm is very expensive ($500 to meet, $1,000 to beat just for lens) so I will have to think very carefully what I want to achieve and what I will do, especially because it is easy to wander off and forget there is more than one thing at play and things can be handled in more than one way, starting with KISS (carbon fiber monopod/tripod costs much less than DSLR setup).

Very good and valid points Zoran. I see what you are referring to. It would be good to get a full file too see what is what.

Yeah...the camera gear can get pricey...trust me on that one. When I bought my 100-400L I just about fell over. I love the lens and use it a LOT, but wow, good glass is not cheap.

Mt wife's Canon G9 takes awesome photos than can be captured in both Raw and Raw + Large Jpeg. The picture quality is excellent but where the biggest difference I can see between Advanced PnS and the DSLR is both in noise levels as well as in a photo that looks more 3D. It is hard to explain but the DSLR with good glass just provides a better picture. I am not sure what the lines of resolution is on your Sony, but I know that for most Advanced PnS cameras that this is where they get hammered most by the DSLR.

I offered to let my wife shoot with the 40D, that way I can hopefully get her hooked and then 5D Mark II here I come! But she does not like using the DSLR and prefers the simplicity of the G9.

Tim

[Bunky]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

You can do an Alt-Prnt Screen to capture screen shots unless I misunderstood the intent.

[Kevin Brown]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

Hey Mike, are you talking that thing we've all been discussing where we change the thingamajig to the new doohickey and then the whatchamacallit gets revised into a new dealybob? 'Cause that's gonna be awesome!

Yup. Mike Stoops' comments will work here, too.
W O W. I am REALLY a beginner...

"On, point, shoot, check. DANG!- Blurry frick an frack...!"

[Bunky]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

I read the review at dpreviews they talk about over processing if anything so the pics should have more punch (jpg). The van images are just too soft period for almost any camera and I do not think they can explained away by the glass. There is another reason.

[Blake Beamish]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

OK so I took the image and just added sharpness, contrast, warmed up the color temperature, and did some light curves adjustment and it looks pretty much like what you got out of your old P&S. Also, I don't know who is hosting that image but it looks BAD at 100%! They resized the image and it did not smooth out the edges at all so it looks way softer than it probably is and there are some blotchy shots in the red paint. Anyways, here is the version I edited.

[seth1066]

Re: Playing with the new camera....I have a LOT to learn!

Here is a screen shot (a poor one at that as I had to photograph my monitor which is not good idea but had no choice) of the histogram of the first shot. As you can see it is not over-exposed and if anything it is about 1/3 underexposed. On the far right you can see that his highlights are blown out but otherwise, the curve looks pretty decent.




Perhaps Nick should explain what he is referring to in regards to his pictures so that we can make sure we are all talking about the same issues...

Tim

Tim, I don't have a clue here, but I'm guessing that a photo of a monitor's display of a photo will give a true histogram representation of the original shot. Comparing it to the histogram of the old camera's screen shot may be a good comparison.