NXT wax or cleaner wax?

[Mosca]

Bret,

I've been thinking about the layering thing, and it wouldn't be too hard to conduct an experiment, I don't think; a real experiment.

Imagine a 2" square piece of painted sheet metal, and a scale or balance accurate to a thousandth of a gram; would that be accurate enough?

Apply AIO and SG, then find the mass of the piece. The next day, apply SG again, and find the mass again.

I would suggest doing this with one coat, on a number of samples. That way you could get a reasonable estimate of the mass of SG needed to cover 4 square inches of paint. Then you could see how much SG is in the second coat; Is it a full layer, or does SG increase the density of the polymer net?

After doing this with, say, 50 samples, then see if a third coat adds the same amount, or more, or less. Ditto 4th, if you want to.

IMO, this would be the easiest way to find out about layering. Perhaps The Guru Reports would like to address this possibility? It's much more scientific than a bunch of people looking at SG and agreeing that it looks better after 5 coats, or some such. I think the hardest part would be finding an accurate enough balance or scale. But that would be a lot easier than getting someone to put an electron scanning microscope on your car.

Just a suggestion,

Tom

[Mike Phillips]

Just to chime in here,

Because whether or not a product is capable of layering is such a hot topic in the online detailing communities, I think it's only natural that the discussion takes place, and what better place than here.

I know that layering is possible at least to the degree of creating a layer with a uniform density.

I think that layering is possible if by layering you mean increasing the thickness of a layer of product, at least to some degree.

But I believe that at some point, the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

The Law of Diminishing Returns
(Thomas Malthus "Essay on the Principle of Population" published in 1798.)

While this theory is generally used to discuss topics as they relate to the areas of economics and politics, it is a model that can also be used to explain in this case, the complex action occurring at the microscopic level on the surface of your car's finish.

The law of diminishing returns as it relates to layering,

A surface, such as an automotive paint, can only hold so much product before all you're doing is removing all subsequent coatings applied to the surface.

That is to say, after the first, second and in some cases a third application/coating, any more product applied to the surface is merely removed when you wipe the excess off after waiting for the product to dry or cure.

At this point you've reached a plateau, (or limit), as to how much wax, (natural or synthetic) a surface can hold. Once you reach this plateau, all further applications of wax simply become excess that will be removed (and thus wasted), during wipe-off because it has nowhere to attach and layer.

Of course, this all depends upon your definition of the word "Layer".

If your definition of the word layer follows that of Webster's Dictionary,

2 a: One thickness, course, or fold, laid or lying over or under another

Then yes, you can layer to a certain point. For example, you can add multiple layers of layerable waxes until the limit to how much a given surface of an automotive paint can hold before each additional application is simply removed, or replaces a previously applied layer.

You cannot layer to the point of developing a measurable film-build without negatively affecting, or diminishing to some degree, the shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color etc. This is especially true if the product you're applying is not clear (in and of itself) to start with.

If your definition of the word layer means,

Layer 1: To continually build a greater level of protection with each additional application, or layer, of a wax or protectant. (Natural or synthetic)

Layer 2: To continually increase shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color without end and/or after a plateau, or point of maximum potential has been achieved.

Then no, you cannot layer a wax, synthetic, natural, or otherwise.

I know Meguiar's recommends multiple coats of both our new Velocity Mold Sealer and mold Release as well as our traditional Mold Release Waxes when preparing a mold for lay-up. But, in these situation, the goal is never to make the mold look good, but to insure maximum protection. (Prevent sticking a mold).

(As a side note, molds prepared with the Meguiar's mold release systems do look exceptionally clear and glossy, especially with the new Velocity Liquid Polymer system.)

When it comes to automotive finishes however, I think there is a trade-off when looking for a product that layers and a product that doesn't.

If a product truly layers, as in it builds up a thickness, then it would in essence be doing what is expected, and hoped for, by the coating of paint. That is it would deposit a coating that protects the paint which is of course the goal. But, if a product truly does layer, then it is vitally important that the surface be absolutely clean with each application or you would risk sealing, or locking in dirt, dust and other above and below surface contaminants.

This would be easy to control as long as the car in question was/is never exposed to the outside world. However, once the car is exposed to the outside world, then we lose this tight control over insuring a dust, dirt and contaminant free surface.

To wash, or quick detail the vehicle doesn't insure the finish is completely free from dirt, dust and contaminants as these things, in microscopic form, can penetrate and imbed into the matrix of the wax coating and also in the pores and microscopic surface imperfections of the paint.

That was part of what I was writing about in my article, "The lesson white paint teaches us". In this article, I explain how paint becomes dirty, below the surface that in most cases our eyes cannot see because it happens evenly over the entire surface and slowly over time.

The reason I noticed it, was because the paint on two cars that I had detailed had become dramatically grayer with dirt build up under the surface except for where the paint was protected by a bra after only a few months of daily driving. Both of these cars were washed and maintained, but the paint still became dirty under the surface. This taught me that normal washing does not completely remove all dirt, dust, road grime, and other contaminants.

So to say that washing a car, or quick detailing a car before applying a product with no cleaning ability will be enough to insure that you are not coating over, or sealing dirt under the surface is somewhat hard to prove. That is if it's exposed to the world in which we live in.

If on the other hand, it is always garage kept, then perhaps it's possible to not coat over and seal in dirt, dust and other unwanted contaminants.

If the car in question is exposed to the world in which we live in for any amount of time between regular application of a protection type product, then I would venture to say, for a majority of the population, a pure protection product, (that is a product with no cleaning ability whatsoever), would do their finish more harm than good in that it will be coating over and sealing in microscopic particles of dirt, dust and other contaminants that over time will cloud or hide the true color of the finish. In fact, over time, I would propose their finish will gray, to some degree. At least this is what I have seen happen to white paint and if it is happening to white paint it is happening to all paint because dirt is not selective.

On the other hand, a product with just a sleight cleaning ability will remove this dirt, dust and contaminant accumulation, continually creating a totally clear finish which in my experience, the clearest finishes are the most beautiful finishes.

If layering of an automotive protection product is truly possible, then I'm not sure as to how many people this would be a benefit to if they drive their cars on a daily basis, and at least some time goes by, before they wash and apply subsequent applications of their choice of protective products that offer no cleaning ability.

This is why Meguiar's has always offered dedicated paint cleaners, and dedicated cleaner/polishes. These products are formulated to first clean the paint so that a pure protection type product can be applied without the fear of coating over and sealing in dirt. Some of Meguiar's dedicated paint cleaners are so gentle in fact that many people cannot distinguish them from a pure polish with no cleaning ability. Deep Crystal Step-1 Paint Cleaner is a good example of a gentle paint cleaner that some people cannot distinguish from a pure polish such as the Deep Crystal Step 2 Polish. That is because it is a very, very gentle paint cleaner.

As far as Mold Release waxes go, after molds are coated with multiple coatings, they are usually put into production mode, and typically are never exposed to the environment unprotected, or uncovered. Therefore they never accumulate dirt.

After a certain number of pulls, or releases, the molds are usually either re-coated with the mold release wax, or the mold surfaces are stripped clean, sometimes compounded and polished and the mold release coatings are re-applied.

When a mold is going to be removed from production, and it cannot be adequately covered to protect it from accumulating dirt, dust and other contaminants upon the mold surface, then it is often coated with a paste mold release wax such as # 88 Universal Mold Wax as a storage wax.

The purpose of a wax
The whole idea behind applying a protective coating to automotive finishes is to act as a sacrificial barrier-film. This sacrificial barrier-film in essence, sacrifices itself so your paint doesn't have to. Then you, as the owner, can reapply another coating to replenish the wax that has worn away.


Comments?

Mike

[BretFraz]

Tom,

It's an interesting question you pose. I'm not sure how a test like that could be conducted though. It's worth looking into.

As for Guru Reports, I cannot speak for them directly but I do know that the scope of the publications are geared towards general enthusiasts and others who want their cars to look great but are confused by all the product claims and marketing. My concern about a detailed scientific test is that it would not appeal to the primary audience. It would just be too technical.

But I do think a discussion about product layering would educational. I look forward to more discussion on this topic.

[Boss_429]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips

If layering of an automotive protection product is truly possible, then I'm not sure as to how many people this would be a benefit to if they drive their cars on a daily basis, and at least some time goes by, before they wash and apply subsequent applications of their choice of protective products that offer no cleaning ability.

Comments?

Mike

Wow Mike! As usual, you sure give your customers their monies worth!

Seriously, while that was all great info, I find that one particular summary paragraph very interesting, and thought provoking.

Thanks

[TOGWT]

~One mans opinion / observation~

Thank you all for your insights (if any one of us find the ‘ultimate shine’ we’ll let you know, but then (for me anyway) it’s the journey.


I actually started this thread to give MikeP a reason to quantify NXT on a Megs site (most of the people who responded are contributors to other websites) but the intent was for those who go to a Megs site for info on a Megs product to obtain an answer

~ Hope this helps ~
Experience unshared; is knowledge wasted…/

justadumbarchitect * so i question everything*

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by TOGWT


~ Hope this helps ~

Yes it does, and thank you for asking the question!

Mike