Questions on No.6

[AceM3]

So I was hired by a local detail so that has been opened since 81'. He's still a rotary everything tour of shop. I'm used to the new school corrections and polishes.

Well he introduced me to No6. This is what they use after using a rotary with No95 or other alternatives to remove oxidation or scratches.

I am to apply it with a soft Terry cloth towel followed by hand wax with a same type towel.
No6 is to "remove" buffet tails and holograms.

My questions are, are they using this product correctly? Does it really do as they say? Upon finishing the car I still see more swirls and spiderwebs than before except the posing is shiny. Wish then makes me wonder, does this product wash off one they go about their regular maintenance?

I just feel uneasy since I'm used to using a flex 3401 or rupes for correction, which "takes too long" for a production high end shop. But it hurts me every time they tell me to put some weight in to my hand when applying this No.6.

I don't know anything about this product so I'd rather get more info first. To at least put my mind at ease.


Thanks in advance!

[davey g-force]

Re: Questions on No.6

M6 is a cleaner wax, so it may remove some buffer trails / holograms, but not many, especially if you're working by hand.

But I also doubt it would instill more swirls, unless you're doing something wrong.

Basically what you're doing is temporarily masking the holograms (to some extent) with M6, only to be uncovered again later when it wears off.

[Murr1525]

Sounds like a mess to me, and the terry cloth isn't helping....

[The Guz]

Re: Questions on No.6

I have to agree with Murr. Would be better off applying with a foam applicator or a foam polishing pad. As Davey said this is a clear wax and can only do so much.

[AceM3]

See that's exactly what goes through my mind.
As I've tried to unsuccessfully explain to the shop, a wax cannot remove holograms or buffer trails, wax is meant to protect the work that has been done. Maybe it has some filler properties but not correction. Otherwise why is it that no one else even users no6.

[davey g-force]

Re: Questions on No.6

Well, a cleaner-wax also does some minimal correction, but generally not enough to clean up holograms.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Questions on No.6

M06 is a cleaner wax, but as with ANY product you can dramatically alter the cut simply by how you use it. But to hand apply M06 in an attempt to remove rotary holograms is not something that we recommend.

If we understand the scenario, it goes something like this:

• Remove existing paint defects with a rotary buffer and M95 (are they using a wool pad or foam?)
• Hand apply M06 to remove buffer swirls
• Hand apply a second wax

How long does it take you to apply M06, wipe it off, apply the second wax, and wipe it off? We just can't imagine that applying M06 via Flex, Rupes or any other DA buffer would actually take longer than it would to apply two waxes by hand. And you'll get a lot more defect removal with M06 if you apply it with a buffer.

If the operator running the rotary is actually doing a pretty darn good job at removing defects without inflicting a lot of holograms or buffer trails (and, yes, that most definitely can be done if just a bit of patience is used) then you may well be able to finish off with just a good cleaner wax via DA. M06 fits that bill, but other options like M66 and M20 will also work well here, and M20 leaves some nice polymer protection behind at the same time. On paint where it's darn near impossible to finish down nicely with the rotary, then an intermediate polishing step may be called for.

A lot also depends on what type of detailing these guys are doing. If they are not doing really high end correction (and please understand, that is NOT a knock against these folks) then they may not be too worried about a few defects left behind. Not everyone is willing to pay big money for a high end correction process. And just because someone doesn't detail a car to total, absolute perfection does not make them a "hack", so let's not even go there. Well, if the detailer is charging seriously big money for a real "show car shine" and he's falling far, far short of the expectation, then maybe that term can be applied to him. But that word "expectation" is the real key to any detailing job.

• How much time is being allotted for the job?
• What is the customer being charged for the job?
• What has the detailer promised?
• What does the customer expect?

As stated above, using M06 by hand to remove rotary swirls is not our recommended practice, but there are always different ways to accomplish a given task. Even our "recommended procedures" have to be tweaked a bit depending on how the paint responds and what the expectations are. As you know, there is no one single process/product that "does it all" for every car out there.

[AceM3]

Michael Stoops let me elaborate a little more.
They are a "High End" Production Detail Shop.
When a vehicle comes in with great defects such as oxidation or other blemishes and scratches they use the rotary at 1500-2000rpm with a B&S
Yellow cutting pad and heavy compounds. Now I don't know how the detailer that designed this method for them would go about pressure or finesse with the tool but the current guy in charge is always in a "hurry". A few times I've seen him completely compress the whole pad with pressure when polishing out a defect just to cut time.(scary)

I understand that a production shop won't take the extra time to correct the paint to perfection since time is money, but I really don't think their methods are up to date or always accurate for the car.

There is a time limit on every vehicle detailed. Depending on size and level of service, such as a wash and wax or an exterior detail, there is an average of 1-3 hours after it left the wash bay.
Meaning if you have a black Honda pilot you only have about 2 to 2.5 hrs to make it as good as possible and ready for pick up.

I've been able to introduce to correction system that you guys offer and seems to be working on some cars but then again, in order to complete on time there is only about a half hour to an hour of machine time with a PC 7414 DA.

Oh and to answer the question it takes about 20 min to apply no6 and remove it with mf towels using their method.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Questions on No.6

They are a "High End" Production Detail Shop.

That's a bit of an oxymoron, truth be told. Most detailers will tell you that they are either "production" or "high end" - the two rarely go hand in hand. Yes, there are guys who will do both but they don't do every car the same way. If they have a client with a minivan that just wants the interior cleaned and the paint "shined up", they'll do just that and not strive for perfection. But they'll also spend 40+ hours doing a concours prep for a client with a classic or exotic. Other guys are either strictly high end or strictly production (and then there are the guys who just do quickie wash & wax jobs and call themselves detailers, but that's a whole different story).

Your biggest struggle here, and it sounds like you've already figured this out, is that you're the new guy in a shop that's been doing things the same way for many, many years. In their eyes, they've got experience in the trenches, and you're just a greenhorn with grand ideas. That is very tough to overcome, especially in the short term. I've talked to so many guys at so many levels of skill, experience, passion and thirst for knowledge and you can usually tell which ones are at the top of their game just by talking to them for a while. For example, a body shop guys who's been "doing this for 30 years" will usually have one of two prevailing attitudes:

1) What do you really think you can teach me after 30 years in the business - come on?
2) Give me more of those 3000 grit sanding discs and M105 - I can do the job in half the time with less cost and get a better finish while I'm at it!!

There is nothing you can say to #1 that will change his mind. He's been doing things the same way for 30 years and he refuses to change. Never mind the fact that paint is not the same today as it was 30 years ago, and he really should know that very well. These guys will often tell you that a rotary is the only way to correct defects, that there's no point in wet sanding beyond 1000 grit, and that a DA buffer is just a toy for novices who just want to spread wax. Anything new you recommend to this guy falls on deaf ears. "Set in his ways" doesn't even begin to describe this guy.

But #2 has experience coupled with an openness and willingness to always push his craft further, to always be better at what he does. Whether that means getting a better finish in the same amount of time, getting an equal finish in less time, or just finding new alternatives to older processes. He realizes that refining his sanding marks beyond 1000 to perhaps 3000 grit means a faster buff out with less stress to the paint. He has seen the time savings of the newest crop of high end DA buffers and how they can remove those sanding marks quickly and easily without creating any buffer trails. This guy will ask questions and seek out knowledge in his quest to further his craft and his career.

Where does that leave you? Well, without really knowing the individuals you're working with (for) it's a bit hard to say. They may well be open to new ideas, but they've been so busy doing things the same way for so long that they've never had a chance to be exposed to anything new. You can't push too hard, though, or you risk being alienated.

[AceM3]

So pretty much it be a do or die type of deal.
See the owner is like guy No.1 while the other worker the one with the rotary in his hand is like guy No2.

When I came in i was to learn their method and way of work, begin to shave time and keep my quality. I was up for the challenge but my plan was to update their products once I took over the exterior dept. Not that no6 is bad but like you mentioned not being used as it was designed.

With the time I'm given I can not only produce consistency but improve on the quality, but if I'm seen as a green pea note I see that won't happen.
While guy no2 wouldn't mind seeing what I can do the main boss won't allow it. Not even the M105 M205, combo.

[Hoytman]

Re: Questions on No.6

This is something I say and use when instructing students (Heavy equipment)...and I claim the below comment as mine as I've never heard it used anywhere.

"There is always something to learn, even if it's what not to do." -- Bill Stapleton


Right now you're learning their technique, their pace, everything they do...even if you think it's wrong...you're learning from them. Go ahead and do it their way even if you know 100% you can improve upon it now or later. Wait until the prime opportunity...and sometimes you may think it's the right time when it's actually not. Have patience (this is key), the right time will be as clear as the nose on your face. Then as the right time reveals itself, you'll have your opportunity to shine.

You will be able to take what you've learned from them, right/wrong/indifferent and you'll be able to take a student...old or young...show how it's been done and then how it can be done and the vast differences will be obvious to your students.

Some folks are taught the correct way to do certain tasks from the get-go. However, experience is the best teacher and if you haven't been aloud to make mistakes, or be around and see them made by someone else, then you really have nothing to compare it to or to use as examples/contrasts for anyone that you may be instructing.

Sometimes...even oftentimes...drastic and quick changes are resented by people. Remember, Rome wasn't built in a day. It takes time to learn and re-learn. Being able to do is one thing, teaching something clearly is another...and not all are gifted to teach.

The internet is young and there are many old timers that aren't willing to use this powerful tool to gain knowledge. Perhaps through patience and perserverance and the right teaching attitude you can entice them (old timers, bosses, co-workers) to want to learn new and exciting things. This forum along with others offers a wealth of knowledge and experience from which to draw good solid information about this field.

[AceM3]

I had not seen it in such insight. I like the way you shed light on the situation. although there is some differences in the story. Key points that might become key factors in weather I'm going to decide to be there or just cut my loses and remain on my own again.

I've been learning a lot. I read somewhere that in order to say the new technology works better we must first learn the old, so we know how to compare. In my case I have learned the process they have, and its truly great! I love it, but I'm more of a high end detailer over a production detailer.

Some of these paints I'm letting go out are terrible but since I run out of time, it is what it is.

I guess its just my ocd. The main reason I got in to detailing. I'm the kind of (person/student) that spends time watching how Larry Cosilla, Mike Philips, Kevin Brown are detailing. While trying to set goals and learn how to model the great detailers of my time, the ones that have impacted my way of seeing the industry. I do that instead of watching what's on TV, social media and other distractions people my generation cant seem to overcome. I'd mention the names of the many detail shops or owners that I follow to see how they are making it and how their strategies and sales tactics have worked for them but I think that be borderline stalking no?

Anyways, there I go off topic..

[AceM3]

I was dying to be at the NXT classes a few weeks ago, but it wasn't in my budget to afford. Those would have been like a trip to Vegas would be for others. Lol