M101 vs. D300

[Black_MB]

I know that M101 is intended to use on foam pads and D300 is intended to use with MF pads.
I'm using both type of pads, mainly with forced rotation DA - Flex 3401.

I'd like to know the difference of these products in terms of cut and finish with ANY pad. I'm deciding which one to choose. If I go with M101, I think I'll refine with M205. If I go with D300, do I still need refining (with M205) or can I finish LSP ready? (maybe with softer foam?)

Thanks for suggestions

[Michael Stoops]

Re: M101 vs. D300

This may appear to be a fairly simple question but it's actually very complex. Let's look at the two liquids first, what they were developed for, how they work, and what potentially happens when you step outside their design parameters.

M101 was, as you mentioned, designed for use on a foam pad. But it really goes much farther than that. It was designed to be used on a specific foam pad and on European aftermarket paints and with a technique much more common in European body shops than here in the US. That was our very focused intent for this product. It also utilizes the next generation of SMAT abrasives otherwise found in M105, D300, M205, etc. M101 is also a solvent based compound, but that's of little consequence to the end user for the most part. We have seen a lot of people using M101 way outside this design parameter and still manage excellent results - softer foam pads, microfiber pads, dual action polishers, forced rotation polishers, etc. Sometimes those results are almost shockingly good in terms of defect removal and finish quality in a single step. That, of course, is highly paint dependent.

D300 was the first compound we engineered specifically for DA use as well as with the microfiber pads. Its design is so closely tied to the microfiber pads that, during development of the system, if we altered the foam or microfiber slightly we had to alter D300 to account for that change. D300 also makes use of the heavy cutting ability of the microfiber pad itself for removing paint defects, so mating it to a different pad will dramatically change results. But the DA Microfiber System is also highly tuned to a traditional DA polisher running at 4800 opm for cutting and 3800 opm for finishing. Due to the aggressive nature of the system and the motion of the DA tool, it's not uncommon to experience some DA hazing with the system. That, of course, is highly paint dependent. The softer and more delicate the paint, the greater the potential for hazing. And the extra aggressiveness of the Flex 3401 means the potential for haze is increased. This is also why we don't recommend using the DAMF System with a rotary buffer; paint haze is usually very high when using it with that tool.

So, do you need to refine your correction step after using either of these liquids, whether used "as intended" or outside the design parameters? That, of course, is gong to be highly paint dependent. We've seen cases where D300/DMC5 created a lot of haze on a given car, but D300/W8207 did not. Or cases where M101/DMC5 finished virtually LSP ready on one car and far from it on another.

Our recommendation is to take each car on a case by case basis. The usual test spot will tell you what process is going to work best on any particular car, but we would expect that in the majority of cases you'll want to do a refining step with M205 if you're doing a high level project. If you have a situation where a customer is only paying for a one step correction, then you owe it to yourself to determine which process best balances out the level of correction and degree of clarity so that you can go directly from correction to protection. On one car it may be M101/foam and on another it may be D300/microfiber. Heck, you might even find that it's M205/microfiber.

As always, it's the paint that is going to be the big variable and ultimately the deciding factor in what you need to use to achieve a particular goal.

[Black_MB]

Re: M101 vs. D300

Thank you very much Michael for extensive reply! I'll be mainly working on hard clear coats (VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz). I'm leaning towards M101+M205.

[Detale]

Re: M101 vs. D300

It was designed to be used on a specific foam pad and on European aftermarket paints and with a technique much more common in European body shops than here in the US. That was our very focused intent for this product.

Hi Michael,

What specific type of foam pad? What's the common technique used in European body shops?

Thanks!

[Michael Stoops]

Re: M101 vs. D300

Hi Michael,

What specific type of foam pad? What's the common technique used in European body shops?

Thanks!

Specifically our W6006 foam pad, which we don't sell in the US. It's very similar to our burgundy cutting pad that you're probably familiar with but it's a 6" diameter pad that is slightly thicker. We also have a specific, very thick and cushioned backing plate for use with M101/W6006. The common technique in a Euro body shop is to spray the paint to match the existing orange peel as closely as possible, then do only spot repair for any dirt nibs, etc. They tend to use much slower tool speeds that we do here in the US, like maybe 1200 max versus our 1800-2000 normal use. And you almost never find wool pads over there while they are practically the norm here. Further, in Europe they tend to move the pad across the paint more quickly and in much smaller areas (that's also down to the fact that they're just doing spot repair, though) than we do here, and the aftermarket paint they use is a much higher solids paint than body shops use here. M101 was developed for a very specific market - the fact that it seems to work extremely well for people using well outside it's design parameter is a testament to how awesome our chemists are!

[Detale]

Re: M101 vs. D300

Specifically our W6006 foam pad, which we don't sell in the US. It's very similar to our burgundy cutting pad that you're probably familiar with but it's a 6" diameter pad that is slightly thicker. We also have a specific, very thick and cushioned backing plate for use with M101/W6006. The common technique in a Euro body shop is to spray the paint to match the existing orange peel as closely as possible, then do only spot repair for any dirt nibs, etc. They tend to use much slower tool speeds that we do here in the US, like maybe 1200 max versus our 1800-2000 normal use. And you almost never find wool pads over there while they are practically the norm here. Further, in Europe they tend to move the pad across the paint more quickly and in much smaller areas (that's also down to the fact that they're just doing spot repair, though) than we do here, and the aftermarket paint they use is a much higher solids paint than body shops use here. M101 was developed for a very specific market - the fact that it seems to work extremely well for people using well outside it's design parameter is a testament to how awesome our chemists are!

Now THAT is some very interesting info! Thank you for taking the time to explain. I like to stick to using products for what they're designed around(for the most part). I jumped outside the box a bit, though. I recently mixed M105(75%) with UC(25%) and it works great; easy to work with! I don't use a rotary, only DA's.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: M101 vs. D300

Now THAT is some very interesting info! Thank you for taking the time to explain. I like to stick to using products for what they're designed around(for the most part). I jumped outside the box a bit, though. I recently mixed M105(75%) with UC(25%) and it works great; easy to work with! I don't use a rotary, only DA's.

We never have a problem with someone using a product "outside the box", just understand that if you do so and it doesn't work the way you'd like it to, well, we told ya so!

Here's a great example of stepping way outside the box and getting awesome results: M100 Pro Speed Compound, recently introduced, was designed specifically as a "mid tier" compound* for use specifically on a wool pad and rotary buffer spinning at 1500-1800 rpm. Try it on a Rupes 21 with a microfiber finishing pad and it will remove 3000 grit sanding marks in the blink of an eye, and leave a pretty darn terrific finish at the same time. Using a long throw DA and microfiber is far different than wool on a rotary, but the combo is just amazing.


*"Mid tier" compound meaning a product designed for those body shops that put a larger premium on price than they do on total performance.