#9 Swirl Remover 2.0 - is it abrasive or not???

[dave93761]

Just bought a couple of bottles of #9 on clearance (around 25% of RRP here in Australia) - but now I'm confused - several reviews point to the fact that it's 'completely non-abrasive' - http://www.autogeek.net/meg9swirrem.html, and there are some comments that refer to it as having 'diminishing abrasives'.....I'm just wanting to confirm 100% whether this is the case!!!

Dave

[dave93761]

Re: #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 - is it abrasive or not???

EDIT - I know it's a VERY MILD cleaner/polish, just wanting to confirm if it is classified as an 'abrasive' product......I was of the opinion that it was, albeit very mild (rating of 3/10 on the cut scale on the bottle), but after doing some reading, I'm now confused...

EDIT 2 - Because it only removes the 'top edge of the swirl', and fills the rest, does this mean if I were to use this on the car, and NOT top with a wax, that after the next wash I did, it would undo everything and the marks could reappear????

EDIT 3 - Would this be useful in the following procedure (by hand at the moment, soon to have a Festool ROtex forced rotation/random orbital polisher)???

- Wash
- Clay
- SwirlX / UC
- #9
- GC Liquid Wax

Cheers in advance!!

[Murr1525]

Re: #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 - is it abrasive or not???

1. Yes, it is a very mildly abrasive product.

2. #9 can remove the entire swirl if the swirls are mild. Also depends on how it is applied as to how much removal ability you will have. So if the swirls were not entirely removed, they would be only be temporarily filled. And yes, if not topped with a wax, they would only be filled for a short time.

3. SwirlX/UC is going to do a better job at swirl removal. So using #9 after may or may not be needed. Though you may find that #9 will work nicely for mild details in the future by hand or machine when less paint correction is needed.

[Aussie Glossy]

Re: #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 - is it abrasive or not???

It has fillers

[Tim Lingor]

Re: #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 - is it abrasive or not???

It has fillers

Not exactly...here is a quote from Mike Phillips as this topic has come up from time to time...

Here's the skinny...

Some people get so focused on the wrong idea... anyone reading detailing forums in most cases is trying to create beauty by creating a great looking finish, correct?

That is the idea behind going out into your garage and bringing either your hand or some kind of pad on some kind of tool down onto the surface of the paint with some kind of chemical, correct?

Just want to make sure everyone is in agreement on the big picture.

This being true, then lets put things into extremes as the people that get hung up on the filler topic are doing this also, that is positioning the topic in an AR extreme point of view.

If you want to remove a defect that is in the paint, that is a defect like a swirl, scratch or etching that is below the surface, then to do this you need to remove some paint surrounding the defect in an effort to level the surface.

Does everyone agree?

The other option is to apply touch-up paint or paint the panel. It's one or the other, you either level the surface by abrading it or you add more paint in some fashion. In this discussion were not going to focus on repainting the car, just removing the paint by abrading it.

Okay, now that that's settled, lets put things into extremes and then everyone can choose the type of product they want to use.

In one extreme, lets put some sand with some water into a bottle and call that a non-filling abrasive. You have the sand to abrade and the water to lubricate and neither of these two ingredients will conceal, mask, fill or hide any defects in the paint. The problem with this approach is that you're trying to do two things

1. Remove defects
2. Create beauty

Correct? That is what everyone is trying to do, right? Remove defects but also leave the nicest of looking finish possible.

Does anyone know of anyone that wants to remove defects and leave the paint looking dull and scoured, or in other words ugly?

Didn't think so.

So the people that get all hung up on the filler issue always leave the second goal out of the equation and put all the focus on the wrong thing, that is the thing they refer to as a filler while the people that actually understand how to abrade paint and make it look good call these ingredients lubricants.

You wouldn't remove the oil in your car's engine and replace it with water would you? Of course not. Water may be a liquid and thus at some level a lubricant, but it's not the best lubricant for an engine. People that understand how to keep an engine running for thousands of miles know that the engine requires a specific type of lubricant to insure metal rubbing against metal will continue to rub against metal and not seize up due to too much friction.

While the example of using sand and water as a product to abrade paint is ridiculous because we all know there are better abrasives besides beach sand to use in some kind of rubbing compound, the same can be said of water.

Sure it would lubricate the surface while some type of abrasive is abrading the surface but their are better options that will embody the abrasives and act to cushion or buffer their abrading action throughout the buffing cycle to do two things,

1. Remove defects
2. Create beauty

Meguiar's has a long history, maybe the longest history, of creating products that can abrade delicate surfaces to remove defects while at the same time creating a clear, swirl free beautiful finish. This is one of the things that has separated Meguiar's in the refinishing industry, (this means body shops where fresh paint is sprayed and then abraded and polished), from many of the products introduced over the last 100+ years in the refinishing industry that able able to cut or abrade the finish quickly and take out #1000 and even #800 grit sanding marks but they don't do the second thing, create beauty.

Note, simply put,
Refinishing Industry is where new paint is sprayed onto cars
Reconditioning Industry is where neglected paint is restored

In the enthusiasts and detailing worlds, and especially the hardcore, online enthusiast world, there's usually much more focus on doing things the best way, not the fastest way, and that means choosing product that not only can abrade the finish but can do it in a way that creates beauty and hopefully leaving the most paint on the car.

Most of the people that get hung up on the word fillers are usually confused and using the wrong product for the job, thus when they're done and the defects they were trying to remove are still in the paint instead of considering that they may have chosen the wrong product or pad or process, simply blame the product.

Of course there's also a handful of people that for whatever their reason, they don't know better or they have an agenda, they tell everyone the reason a product doesn't work is because instead of abrading the paint and removing the defects it merely fills-in and masks the defects because instead of being a true product with the ability to remove paint, instead it uses fillers to hide, fill or mask the defects. When it comes to our products this is just plain and simple a case of choosing the wrong product, pad and/or process for the task at hand.

M09 is a light cleaner/polish. It contains diminishing abrasives and a proprietary blend of polishing oils that act to lubricate the surface while cushioning and buffering the abrading process while it's taking place when the abrasives are engaged against the paint so that small particles of paint can be removed without scouring and scratching the paint at the same time.

Meguiar's chemists could just use water but they're wiser than this and they know how to create a lubricating base that will enable the chosen abrasives for ANY of our products to both remove defects while creating beauty.

We've never been a company whose goal was merely to create a product that could cut fast because that doesn't result in a beautiful looking finish. There's plenty of other companies to go to if that's what you want.


Meguiar's is about working smarter, that means creating a selection of products our customers can choose from so that they can choose the right product for the job and when they're done, have created a beautiful finish while leaving the most paint, in other words precious film-build, on their car, or their customer's car.


Not sure if this sheds any light on the original purpose for your question about fillers in M09 Swirl Remover 2.0, but after years of reading misinformation on other forums and understanding the reason most threads on the topic of fillers come up on this forum or any forum and that's because of either a lack of understanding of what the capabilities of a product are and/or a lack of understanding of what ingredients necessary are to not only abrade the paint but to also make it look good, (that's two things).

I hope I've laid this discussion out wide-open for others to read and digest and comment on or ask further questions about. In the future, anytime you read any thread on any forum on the topic of fillers, if you've read the above then you'll hopefully be able to bring the focus of the thread back to the big picture and the reason most of us are going out into our garage to work on our cars, or our customer's cars and that's to create beauty.

If you read a post by someone labeling a product as only filling defects and not removing them, maybe suggest to them they try a different product for the job, usually they need something more aggressive or a different pad or a different process. (Process = Rotary Buffer or DA Polisher or by Hand).

Maybe they're trying to remove too deep of swirls out of a clear coat using a DA Polisher with a M09 and a foam finishing pad when what they really need is an aggressive compound with a foam cutting pad on a rotary buffer?

Hope this sheds some light on the topic of fillers, at the end of the day this forum exists to help others when they're having problems using the right product to achieve their goals and in some cases shedding some light on the bigger picture.

Tim

[Mike Phillips]

Re: #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 - is it abrasive or not???

Will the filler topic ever die?

To answer the OP's original questions, it's a matter of semantics.

When Meguiar's says a product is non-abrasive that doesn't always mean it doesn't contain ingredients with the ability to remove defects it means it won't leave more scratches in the surface than it removes.

Too many people see the word abrasive and in their mind connect it with a product that puts scratches in the paint.

M09 is a light cleaner/polish and it does contain diminishing abrasives. If you use it like it's supposed to be used it won't scratch paint but it does have the ability to abrade the paint and remove light swirls.

Hope that helps...



p.s.

Thanks Tim for digging up my explanation on fillers, theres actually at least one more similar article on this topic in Hot Topics with 'after' pictures on a black Honda Pilot hood after using M80 in another answer to the topic of fillers.

A lubricating film is often times positioned as a filler but the person doing the positioning often times doesn't take into account that polishing paint is more than just a grinding process and you need to lubricate the surface as you abrade it so it will look good when you're finished.

Water is a lubricant and not a filler but it's not as good a lubricant as something with some lubricating oils in it also.

Correctly used, a product made to remove defects will in fact remove the defects, not just fill them in. If the defects are just being filled in it could be that a more aggressive approach is needed or the operator doesn't have the necessary skill level to do the job right.

There's also a thread in "Hot Topics" on the words/terms "Cleaning & Cleaners" that would fit well to this thread if someone wants to find it and post the link to it.

[dave93761]

Re: #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 - is it abrasive or not???

Wow the great man posted in my thread!!! I feel honoured

Thanks for your input Mike, upon reading my original post again - I was connecting the word 'abrasive' with its ability to do paint correction, which it obviously does.

As far as my OP, point 3 - would #9 be ok to use as a finishing polish after something like SwirlX or UC, even though they don't scar the finish themselves, would it help provide a little extra cleaning power and a little extra gloss before waxing??? Or would it be a pointless exercise???

[Michael Stoops]

Re: #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 - is it abrasive or not???

It would most likely be a pointless exercise, primarily because both UC and SwirlX utilize SMAT technology and will, most likely, leave a higher level of clarity than M09 will. If you want to add additional gloss to a dark colored vehicle then your next logical step would be to add a pure polish such as M07 or Deep Crystal Polish, especially while still working by hand.

Once you obtain the tool you mentioned then following with M205 Ultra Finishing Polish will go a long way to refining the finish, and really bringing clarity to a maximum. Use the M205 on a finishing pad at a low to moderate speed, and take advantage of its very long buffing cycle to really refine the finish. You'll love it!

[dave93761]

Re: #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 - is it abrasive or not???

Thanks Michael - my car is silver, so would the same process apply with regards to M07 or M205?

[Michael Stoops]

Re: #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 - is it abrasive or not???

A silver car will be better served with M205 than M07 - the SMAT technology in M205 will make that silver gleam and the flake really pop.

[Fly Bye]

Re: #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 - is it abrasive or not???



It is well known that #9 has oils/fillers in it. Thats not to say that it won't remove minor imperfections, swirls or scratches. I first used #9 in I think 2002. If I have minor swirls, and I don't want to spend all day polishing & detailing, I can use #9 to do a quick clean up, and most, if not all of the very small (very shallow) swirls are rounded & filled...gone.

Again, thats not to say that #9 will not remove minor imperfections, just that it does have oils/fillers in it.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 - is it abrasive or not???

Again, thats not to say that #9 will not remove minor imperfections, just that it does have oils/fillers in it.

Plenty of finishing polishes have oils in them and will, to some extent, fill very fine imperfections. But M09 has as much cut as M82 and M205 - all of them rate a 3 on our cut scale (meaning they're quite mild), and all have been used successfully to remove holograms left behind by a more aggressive rotary application. It also falls into the category of "cleaner/polish", meaning it handles both tasks at once.