Pictures from March 2, 2013 Advanced Class

[Michael Stoops]

Our first Advanced Paint Care Class of 2013! Beautiful weather, a very enthusiastic and eager to learn group, and some fantastic results - not a bad way to spend a Saturday!

Following our classroom portion of the day we stepped out to the garage and faced the tools for the day.



Time to demo - damp sanding with a pneumatic DA and 1500 grit finishing media.


Keep that abrasive media clean by simply spraying it with some plain water to rinse the slurry away.


After doing a large demo area with 1500 grit we then refined part of that spot with 3000 grit.


You can see the lack of gloss on the left side, which was sanded only with 1500 grit, and some regained gloss on the right after refining the sanding marks with a 3000 grit finishing disc. Guess which one will be easier to buff out?


Speaking of buffing out the sanding marks, a clean pad is a must so we clean this wool pad with a spur.


We also demonstrated the Pad Washer, which is great for both cleaning pads on the fly and when you're done with the project before putting them away. This works equally well on wool, foam or microfiber pads when using either a rotary or DA buffer.


Picking up the first bead of M105 under the 10 o'clock/2 o'clock line of the pad.


Keep that pad flat when buffing, and move it slowly and smoothly to remove the sanding marks.


No need to force the issue, though, as the rotary is easier to handle if you don't fight it.


This is a sure fire way to create a bunch of holograms in the paint. We like to demo how to do things right, but also show how to do things wrong so you know what it looks like. This is wrong.


Sanding marks gone, it's time to refine the finish with some M205 and a W9207 Soft Buff 2.0 foam finishing pad.


Not too shabby.... or is it?


This is where really good lighting becomes critical. With poor lighting anything can look good, but under very close scrutiny you want to see something like this:


If you get up close and personal with the paint using a good light and you see this after compounding, you aren't done with the compound and cutting pad yet (whether that's M105 or M100 with wool, foam, etc.). These are fine sanding marks still present in the paint. This is NOT ready for finish polishing yet as a finishing polish won't remove these sanding marks.


After the initial demo and some lunch, it was time for the students to replicate the demo. Everyone had a chance to sand, compound and finish polish.


Nice overlapping strokes, but what those edges!


After 1500 grit sanding this should be the result: a very uniform, smooth, dull surface.


The same panel after 3000 grit sanding: notice the gloss is coming back and you can now see some reflection of the overhead lighting. But the surface is still very uniform, which is the goal here (ignore the oval shaped spot as that's a burn through from a previous session).


Now it's time to compound and remove those refined sanding marks, keeping that pad nice and flat.


This is getting really close, but again these are sanding marks so a bit more compounding is still needed. Just because it's close does not mean it's ready for a finishing polish - you must remove all the sanding marks before moving to the next step.


There is no right or wrong way to hold the buffer - find something that's comfortable for you, whether with or without a handle.






Foam pads need to stay clean, too, and a pad conditioning brush is the fastest way to keep them that way.


Sanding, buffing, watching, learning.


Thanks again to everyone for coming out and make this day a huge success!

[s word]

Re: Pictures from March 2, 2013 Advanced Class

I really really want to get into the sanding and rotary work. I would love to learn as much as possible, but I don't think I am ever going to need a rotary doing the occasional weekend details that I do. I've read just about everything and at this point just need to get my hands on. But if not doing severe paint correction what would be the added benefit of moving over to the rotary? I doubt I will get increased speed of paint correction, I may get increased defect removal but DAMF has worked on pretty much everything so far, I am not dealing with anything that was just sanded...

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Pictures from March 2, 2013 Advanced Class

I really really want to get into the sanding and rotary work. I would love to learn as much as possible, but I don't think I am ever going to need a rotary doing the occasional weekend details that I do. I've read just about everything and at this point just need to get my hands on. But if not doing severe paint correction what would be the added benefit of moving over to the rotary? I doubt I will get increased speed of paint correction, I may get increased defect removal but DAMF has worked on pretty much everything so far, I am not dealing with anything that was just sanded...

Interesting questions, and the answers are sort of in a state of flux these days. Traditionally, it's really been all but impossible to remove sanding marks with anything other than a rotary buffer, but new technology in both compounds, pads, abrasive media, and even tools is changing that. For example, with 3M recently introducing 5000 grit finishing discs and us having microfiber pads and liquids like M105, M101 and M100, you can often handle corrections using a process that might be similar to the steps below when presented with very severe defects:

1. damp sand using a DA buffer, foam interface pad, and starting with the appropriate grit abrasive media (1500 is usually more than aggressive enough for defect removal in a detailing environment rather than a body shop, but 3000 grit can do amazing things on its own)
2. finish sand as fine as you can, regardless where you initiated the sanding - 3000 grit should be your minimum target, 5000 grit should make compounding a breeze on anything but the very hardest of paints. But those 5000 grit discs are pricey!
3. using a G110v2 (quite possibly the very same tool you used for damp sanding) and a DMC5 microfiber cutting disc plus your M1xx compound of choice, you should be able to remove properly done 3000 grit marks without a huge effort. If you're using something like the Rupes 21 that sanding mark removal will go even faster

To some it might sound crazy to damp sand instead of just rotary compounding or doing several passes with the DA Microfiber Correction System, but as this thread points out it can actually be much less invasive to the paint to damp sand with 3000 grit first rather than hammer away with a buffer and compound. Since DA sanding is generally less aggressive than hand sanding (assuming equal grits of abrasive material) and since you're introducing no heat while damp sanding (compared to potentially very high heat with aggressive compounding) it's easy to see why this process can actually be safer. Assuming, of course, you know how to properly damp sand, can read your sanding marks, etc. We are most definitely NOT saying "skip heavy compounding and just break out the sandpaper!". Not at all. But in the right circumstances, and with the right paint, and with proper skill, it's a great process that can save time and paint.

[Fnguyen87]

Re: Pictures from March 2, 2013 Advanced Class

thank you mr. stoops for teaching me how to wet sand you use the rotary! had lots of fun! also already picked up my backpack from the reception thank you!

[s word]

Re: Pictures from March 2, 2013 Advanced Class

Interesting questions, and the answers are sort of in a state of flux these days. Traditionally, it's really been all but impossible to remove sanding marks with anything other than a rotary buffer, but new technology in both compounds, pads, abrasive media, and even tools is changing that. For example, with 3M recently introducing 5000 grit finishing discs and us having microfiber pads and liquids like M105, M101 and M100, you can often handle corrections using a process that might be similar to the steps below when presented with very severe defects:

1. damp sand using a DA buffer, foam interface pad, and starting with the appropriate grit abrasive media (1500 is usually more than aggressive enough for defect removal in a detailing environment rather than a body shop, but 3000 grit can do amazing things on its own)
2. finish sand as fine as you can, regardless where you initiated the sanding - 3000 grit should be your minimum target, 5000 grit should make compounding a breeze on anything but the very hardest of paints. But those 5000 grit discs are pricey!
3. using a G110v2 (quite possibly the very same tool you used for damp sanding) and a DMC5 microfiber cutting disc plus your M1xx compound of choice, you should be able to remove properly done 3000 grit marks without a huge effort. If you're using something like the Rupes 21 that sanding mark removal will go even faster

To some it might sound crazy to damp sand instead of just rotary compounding or doing several passes with the DA Microfiber Correction System, but as this thread points out it can actually be much less invasive to the paint to damp sand with 3000 grit first rather than hammer away with a buffer and compound. Since DA sanding is generally less aggressive than hand sanding (assuming equal grits of abrasive material) and since you're introducing no heat while damp sanding (compared to potentially very high heat with aggressive compounding) it's easy to see why this process can actually be safer. Assuming, of course, you know how to properly damp sand, can read your sanding marks, etc. We are most definitely NOT saying "skip heavy compounding and just break out the sandpaper!". Not at all. But in the right circumstances, and with the right paint, and with proper skill, it's a great process that can save time and paint.

Every once and a while I nudge forward on my understanding and application ability of detailing. My biggest leaps came from the 101 class where I realized I really knew so little and the next is the response you just gave above. I may be relatively new to formal world of detailing, about 6 months in, but this seems to be a really quiet monumental shift in what the home DIYer can achieve with a basic tools set. The combo of pads, backing plates, liquids, other various attachments...all are coming together to create a vary enabled set of minimal required tools.

In 1. you mention a combo of DA, foam interface pad and appropriate grid paper. I had yet to see anything on this and will research more to understand the combo and required items. I was looking at sanding disks because after correcting the first set of headlights, everyone now wants this done. Sanding discs in general are somewhat pricey, I'll have to look up the 3M discs!

Now that I have a better understanding of the new possibilities with my existing tools I will likely need to head over for an advanced class. From the look of the class structure above you are teaching these tasks with the traditional tools. If I took an advanced class would there be any possibility of testing the above mentioned 1,2,3 process or would it be even better for me to learn on the traditional tools so that my understanding is there and moved what I learn to the combo you mention above. I wouldn't mind a try at those other tools.

[rmagnus]

Re: Pictures from March 2, 2013 Advanced Class

Now that I have a better understanding of the new possibilities with my existing tools I will likely need to head over for an advanced class. From the look of the class structure above you are teaching these tasks with the traditional tools. If I took an advanced class would there be any possibility of testing the above mentioned 1,2,3 process or would it be even better for me to learn on the traditional tools so that my understanding is there and moved what I learn to the combo you mention above. I wouldn't mind a try at those other tools.

Thats' the purpose of the Advanced Class to give you hands on time with the materials and tools. It focuses on sanding and buffing with the air sander and a rotary buffer. Most of the time is spent working on technique and using various combinations of the products. There is some class time as well. That's one of the big differences between the 101 and Advanced Class the Advanced Class is more hands on actually doing the work. It's a greast refresher or for many a great introduction to sanding and buffing.

Got to give Michael his props he's an awesome instructor with a great sense of humor. I think he got nailed with rotary sling a time or two. s word don't delay, sign up for the course it's well worth it. I'm sure you can pull out a DA in this class to compare the differences. Just don't borrow Michaels Flex 14-2 rotary, unless you've got an extra 4 bills in your pocket.....cause you'll fall in love!

[s word]

Re: Pictures from March 2, 2013 Advanced Class

Thanks for the advice.

[Jackaayy]

Re: Pictures from March 2, 2013 Advanced Class

So great! Thank you for taking so much time to teach all of us!

[Espyone]

Re: Pictures from March 2, 2013 Advanced Class

Great class Mike! Thanks for the time and knowledge.