Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

[Mary S]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Michael, the wash company that I contacted in New York apparently first puts down an alkaline presoak to attack oils, then follows it with an acid presoak to attack dirt other than oils. They follow that with power wash then trifoam and rinse.

I found this one reference to high alkaline soap and wax: Green Bean Boat Soap Wash & Shine is a micro-sheet of wax to begin with so using a high alkalinity soap will remove it in just a few washes.

Michael, may I ask, since beading is not a determinant of wax protection, what can you do to test for it? I would like to do a trial but I need to know how to tell if my wax has been stripped or partially stripped.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Wow. A lot of things (potentially) to touch on here.

Will a touchless car wash strip wax - that's basically the crux of this discussion. Well, if the wash is a two part acid wash/alkaline rincse then it will, at least to some degree. How quickly it will do so is another question. If you're going to remove dirt with any level of effectiveness you need either some pretty strong detergents (which will strip wax) or some pretty high tech soaps (that may or may not - and such soaps may or may not even exist).

Meguiar's does not supply soap to these types of car washes, although we do supply a wide variety of soap (check our Detailer Line for the full run down) to a heck of a lot of car washes around the country. Our soaps are all pH balanced to ensure they do not strip wax. And that's the key - the pH of the soap or, in the case of a touchless car wash, the final rinse.

By far the most common method of cleaning in these touchless washes is to presoak/pretreat/preclean (or whatever word you like here) with an acid wash that will remove the dirt. And that acid level is generally in the pH range of 3.5 to 4.5. But that acid was needs to be neutralized, not merely "rinsed" off, and the only way to do this is with an alkaline rinse that is generally in the pH range of 11 to 13. It's this high pH that strips your wax, not the acid wash.

Now, we certainly can't speak for any other company's soaps or claims, and if someone has developed a soap or prewash/neutralizing rinse that is able to step outside of this scenario, it isn't something that we are involved in at all. But there's usually an easy way to check - ask for a copy of the MSDS and check the pH levels of the product. If the pH is high, as noted above, then it is at the very least highly suspect when it comes to concerns about stripping wax.

Having said all that, there's something else that needs to be stated (again - we've said this a bunch of times recently): if you live in an area where the roads are salted in the winter and your car is covered in the stuff, then whether or not a touchless car wash will strip your wax is the least of your concerns. You want that salt off, even if it means taking the wax off with it. Truth is, if your car has been covered in salt there probably isn't much, if any, wax left anyway. GET THE SALT OFF Using a wash like this from time to time is likely not to be a problem. Marki, from your own experience your paint hasn't fallen off, your trim hasn't turned to dust. As with anything, however, there are good, not so good, and downright terrible examples. Finding a good one is the tricky part.

One last thing - beading is not a sign of wax protection. It can be, but it isn't always. You can take a freshly painted panel, wet sand it, buff it out with M105, finish with M205 and leave it like that and it will bead water like crazy if you just spray the panel down. Not a hint of wax protection on it.

[Mary S]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Even if the soap was more user friendly, not as harsh. Being a friction wash, would that not be as bad on the finish? What I am trying to say is every time you touch the surface aren't you abrading the surface? Who knows what gunk and junk is attached to the brushes? More friction= more abrading.

I always thought the friction washes went the way of the dodo bird because of labor costs. No one needed to vacuum the vehicle. No one to hook up the vehicle. No one to unhook the vehicle. No one to dry off the vehicle, and to move it to a staging area for the customer to pick it up and leave. With the drive thru washes there are no labor costs associated solely on the wash. The clerk does other things and just rings up the price of the wash.

Not trying to be obstinate about this. i just think that the majority of automatic car washes are not the paint care enthusiasts cup of tea. For the average person they are great. But for people who take paint care to a different level, they have the potential to more harm then good.

J. A.,

Friction washes are still around. I refer you to my last post at the bottom of page 2 on this thread http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41879

I think no matter what kind of automatic wash you use, attended or not, friction or touchless, it is going to be worse on either the paint or the wax than washing it by hand, and neither one will get your car as clean or as nice looking as hand washing.

I just want to fully understand what the consequences are and make an informed decision at any point in time. It still takes me close to an hour to hand wash either my car or my husband's, if you count from beginning to having everything put away.

So I just want to know what the options are and the consequences of using those options.

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

J. A., I am assuming the wash was a friction wash of some sort? If that were the case, the soap probably wasn't formulated in a way that was possibly deleterious to the wax.



This is what I suspect too. And, that it is going to be dependent on what wax/sealer you have on your car and how many layers you have.

Friction washes got a bad reputation for being harmful to the car's paint, which is why you almost never see them in the self-serve automatic car washes anymore. I think if one run through a touchless car wash would strip somebody's $50 hand wax job, you could find that information everywhere on the web, and the soap vendor chemists would have been doing something to fix the problem.

I tried Googling something like "touchless wash and strip wax," and other than car care forums, I found the one touchless car wash chain in New York, the one I referred to above, and the only reason I got that match is because in their FAQ they mentioned not to wash your car with dishwashing soap as it would strip the wax.

So I am sure the touchless wash will be harder on your wax than hand washing or automatic friction wash. How hard, you would have to do some tests to find out. Maybe it would be something that you could compensate for by drying your car immediately after leaving the bay and using Ultimate Quick Detailer on it. It may be worse than that. Even doing that, you may have to wax your car more often if you use these washes regularly.

One thing that might be worth the $5 for a touchless express wash is to drive the car through just to get the underbody blast, then drive out and do your own wash and wax, because most people aren't equipped to clean their own undercarriage.

Even if the soap was more user friendly, not as harsh. Being a friction wash, would that not be as bad on the finish? What I am trying to say is every time you touch the surface aren't you abrading the surface? Who knows what gunk and junk is attached to the brushes? More friction= more abrading.

I always thought the friction washes went the way of the dodo bird because of labor costs. No one needed to vacuum the vehicle. No one to hook up the vehicle. No one to unhook the vehicle. No one to dry off the vehicle, and to move it to a staging area for the customer to pick it up and leave. With the drive thru washes there are no labor costs associated solely on the wash. The clerk does other things and just rings up the price of the wash.

Not trying to be obstinate about this. i just think that the majority of automatic car washes are not the paint care enthusiasts cup of tea. For the average person they are great. But for people who take paint care to a different level, they have the potential to more harm then good.

[roushstage2]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Very good points. Tyler. I was thinking more along the lines of a summer wash. I agree with you. Factoring all things. It would disappear quickly.

In the summer without the extremes, I imagine it would probably take even longer.

[Mary S]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

The point is, I do not believe after diluting the product he was stripping any ones wax from there paint. Now 35 years later that is a genuine concern. How times have changed. lol

J. A., I am assuming the wash was a friction wash of some sort? If that were the case, the soap probably wasn't formulated in a way that was possibly deleterious to the wax.

I'm still kinda thinking that it'll take more than one wash, but maybe after a few washes which probably wouldn't take too long back East with all that salt, plus the salt, it could deteriorate the wax quicker than normal to where it would disappear before there was time to apply more.

This is what I suspect too. And, that it is going to be dependent on what wax/sealer you have on your car and how many layers you have.

Friction washes got a bad reputation for being harmful to the car's paint, which is why you almost never see them in the self-serve automatic car washes anymore. I think if one run through a touchless car wash would strip somebody's $50 hand wax job, you could find that information everywhere on the web, and the soap vendor chemists would have been doing something to fix the problem.

I tried Googling something like "touchless wash and strip wax," and other than car care forums, I found the one touchless car wash chain in New York, the one I referred to above, and the only reason I got that match is because in their FAQ they mentioned not to wash your car with dishwashing soap as it would strip the wax.

So I am sure the touchless wash will be harder on your wax than hand washing or automatic friction wash. How hard, you would have to do some tests to find out. Maybe it would be something that you could compensate for by drying your car immediately after leaving the bay and using Ultimate Quick Detailer on it. It may be worse than that. Even doing that, you may have to wax your car more often if you use these washes regularly.

One thing that might be worth the $5 for a touchless express wash is to drive the car through just to get the underbody blast, then drive out and do your own wash and wax, because most people aren't equipped to clean their own undercarriage.

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

I'm still kinda thinking that it'll take more than one wash, but maybe after a few washes which probably wouldn't take too long back East with all that salt, plus the salt, it could deteriorate the wax quicker than normal to where it would disappear before there was time to apply more.

Very good points. Tyler. I was thinking more along the lines of a summer wash. I agree with you. Factoring all things. It would disappear quickly.

[roushstage2]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Not to hijack this thread, or divert it away from its intention.
Whenever I read about the automatic car washes and people wondering if the soap removes the wax on your vehicle. I am always reminded of this.

Back in the day. I worked at a car wash. Old school. Put your car in neutral, hook a chain to the front end as it goes down the track.

Well our boss was a very frugal (cheap) person. Whenever he received a new batch of product. They came in 55 gallon drums. He would have one of us use a siphon pump and pump out half the product into the existing drum. Then fill with water. 2 drums for the price of one. See I told you he was frugal.

The point is, I do not believe after diluting the product he was stripping any ones wax from there paint. Now 35 years later that is a genuine concern. How times have changed. lol

I'm still kinda thinking that it'll take more than one wash, but maybe after a few washes which probably wouldn't take too long back East with all that salt, plus the salt, it could deteriorate the wax quicker than normal to where it would disappear before there was time to apply more.

[Mary S]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

After the touchless car wash, is your car really clean? I assume it is clean enough but how much does it really clean. Junkman (does the demos for Adam's Polishes) was trying to see if a pressure wash with soap would really clean. His conclusion it is not really that clean and if they wipe it down after the no touch they may just be grinding the dirt across the paint.

I guess one way to look at is if a pressure washer with foam cannon cannot remove the dirt without you physically touching the paint (assuming no lsp removed) how can a touchless car wash do it?

This is from this page http://www.lustrabear.com/car_care_i...story.asp?id=1 on the Lustra web site:

"Cleaning detergents are formulated to perform specific functions and attack certain types of soils on the target surfaces. For example, products formulated as general body soaps for friction washes will perform quite well to help loosen and suspend soil when assisted by the action of cloth or brushes, but will be unsuitable for most other cleaning applications."

The products they recommend for friction and touchless washes are different.

Personally, how clean my Explorer and my husband's Volvo are from the touchless wash, very nice, clean and shiny looking, except my tailgait is still dirty. I don't know if that is because the pretreating doesn't reach there, the power wash doesn't reach there, or the grime there is just too tough. Also, the touchless doesn't do much for tar and contaminants down near the rocker panels.

I should be quick to add, however, that there is no comparison between the clean I get from the touchless wash and a hand washing with Gold Class. The Gold Class wins hands down in gloss and beautiful appearance.

[Bunky]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

After the touchless car wash, is your car really clean? I assume it is clean enough but how much does it really clean. Junkman (does the demos for Adam's Polishes) was trying to see if a pressure wash with soap would really clean. His conclusion it is not really that clean and if they wipe it down after the no touch they may just be grinding the dirt across the paint.

I guess one way to look at is if a pressure washer with foam cannon cannot remove the dirt without you physically touching the paint (assuming no lsp removed) how can a touchless car wash do it?

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Not to hijack this thread, or divert it away from its intention.
Whenever I read about the automatic car washes and people wondering if the soap removes the wax on your vehicle. I am always reminded of this.

Back in the day. I worked at a car wash. Old school. Put your car in neutral, hook a chain to the front end as it goes down the track.

Well our boss was a very frugal (cheap) person. Whenever he received a new batch of product. They came in 55 gallon drums. He would have one of us use a siphon pump and pump out half the product into the existing drum. Then fill with water. 2 drums for the price of one. See I told you he was frugal.

The point is, I do not believe after diluting the product he was stripping any ones wax from there paint. Now 35 years later that is a genuine concern. How times have changed. lol

[roushstage2]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

It could possibly take a few runs through too.

[Mary S]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

She responded to me, and this is the line of products that they use:

http://www.lustrabear.com/

The thing is, they have like dozens of presoaks, dozens of polishes, dozens of drying agents. They are almost as bad as Meguiar's (or as good, depending how you look it) as far as choice goes.

I think they use different mixes for different times of year too.

The car wash in our area has a very similar wash cycle to the one in New York that I contacted. They very well may use the same line of products, but I would have to ask them exactly which ones they use.

I can't imagine any recommended choice of products would strip your wax, unless it is deliberate because it is putting another one on.

Well, when I get the time I may run a quick test. I guess you would expect each wash to impact the wax finish some, but not to strip it altogether like body solvent or Dawn would.

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Can not speak for the car wash you contacted.
However they do seem somewhat knowledgeable. Maybe they are on the up and up.

[Mary S]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Clean, say your hood, use the plastic baggie trick to ensure there is no wax. Wax it, and redo the baggie trick to ensure there is a coating of wax on there and to tell the difference in feel. Go through the car wash and test it again after?

That sounds like a good idea. Either on the hood or the roof.

1. Strip the wax.
2. Divide the area into sections.
3. Apply:

No Wax.
1 coat of Gold Class
1 coat of NXT 2.0
2 coats of NXT 2.0
2 coats of Gold Class
1 coat of NXT 2.0 plus 1 coat of Gold Class
2 coats of NXT 2.0 plus 2 coats of Gold Class


4.Compare the wax protection on all the areas (beading, sheeting, whatever)

5.Go thru the basic no-wax car wash.

6. Compare the wax protection on all areas to the results on step 4 and see if there is a change.

Possibly repeat step 5 and 6.