Any wax that works fills to some degree

[3Fitty]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

TH001,

I have a question about your first response. Are you suggesting that there is some correlation between "filling" and long term durability?

I'm not sure I'm reading it right (and maybe I'm not), but is it your feeling that a product like Z5 Pro will actually amplify minor defects but excells in long term durabilty over a product like NXT 2.0, which does a better job at masking imperfections at the expense of long term durability?

If so, what would be your reasoning for the offset?

[dvtldav]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

Do most of on this forum really care about long term durability? Most of us are going to wax our rides every couple of months if not more anyway. In the warmer weather I wax my car probably every 3 to 6 weeks, so what is the advantage of the durability. If we are not cleaning our cars we are not happy.

Just my opinion

Dave

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

And just to point out, the original reason for this thread was to point out that if a wax or paint sealant is really working it's leaving something, (protection ingredients), behind on the surface to actually protect the paint and that's a good thing because that's the entire idea behind applying the product in the first place.

For some reason, some people get confused by thinking that if a wax fills in minor surface imperfections that's somehow a bad thing. Somehow the idea that coating over or leaving behind a layer of protection does the same thing as filling it's just the words paint different pictures in people's minds. If something leaves a layer of protection on the surface, by it's very nature it's filling because it's coating over the surface.

You cannot leave a coating or layer of protection on a painted surface without filling also taking place.

Anyway, that was the purpose of this thread, to explain this concept so whenever this topic comes up in another thread on the forum a link to this thread can be shared to explain this idea and remove the confusion.

Kind of like when explaining that in order to remove swirls and scratches you need to remove a little paint and in an effort to explain this concept we can include a link to this thread,

What it means to remove a scratch out of anything...

As some people that are new to detailing don't understand that the way you remove a scratch or swirls out of paint is to remove a little paint surrounding the swirls and scratches.

[3Fitty]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

Mike,

But what TH0001 seems to be saying is that a product like Z5 has NO filling effect yet provides protection (which seems to be exactly at odds with what you are saying). From a purely logical standpoint, what you are saying makes complete sense to me. The entire reason for waxing is to leave some type of protective coating behind (ie: some degree of filling). Plus, in my mind this would be a bonus in terms of overall appearance, no?

In response to this, I assume (and according to the Zaino website) their products have "perfect optical clarity" which I assume means "protection without fillers". I've been around the block enough times to know marketting, so I'm not saying I'm buying any of it, just pointing out what appears to be the apparent discrepancy.

And like DV wrote... although I raised the "long term durability" in another thread with regards to NXT 2.0. I tend to agree... in the summer months I would like to wax my car every third day (please tell me it's okay).

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

Do most of on this forum really care about long term durability? Most of us are going to wax our rides every couple of months if not more anyway. In the warmer weather I wax my car probably every 3 to 6 weeks, so what is the advantage of the durability. If we are not cleaning our cars we are not happy.

Just my opinion

Dave

You make a great point and a point that is often glossed over.. (Really bad pun, sorry... couldn't help it)


The best way to maintain a show car finish on a car that is a daily driver is to do 'something' to it often, that could be washing, using a quick detailer, or applying a fresh coat of wax, the point being that somehow the paint is being touched in a way that restores the finish quality to it's maximum potential and/or the previously attained appearance plateau.

This is just a guess by me based upon my experience in the car world in the real world and the car world in the cyber world but the demographic of people that do their own detailing and hang out on discussion forums and talk, argue and debate the topic of durability tend to "do something" often to their car's paint, at least to their toys, maybe not the daily driver Ford Taurus or Chevy Astro Van.

The people that just wash and wax their car once a year and look at their car as a means of transportation and not an extension of their personality are the type that are looking for the most durable wax they think they can find because they're not into cars and not into detailing them. These people are probably looking for products that claim to last for year and will bead water even after 52 car washes.

Not usually our type of demographic customer nor the market the other web-based wax companies are catering to. So your point is correct, for the online serious enthusiasts, durability is less of an issue than it is to Joe Consumer because they're going to 'do something' to the paint often enough that it's more about creating beauty and maintaining the beauty as this is going to showcase the design of their car than it is about having a product that will stay on the surface for long periods of time with the hope and idea this product will prevent a bird dropping from etching the paint when in fact a bird dropping will likely eat past any type of wax or paint sealant in a matter of minutes and etch the paint even if the wax or paint sealant was applied yesterday.

Make sense? Hope so, that took a few minutes to think out and type up.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

Mike,

But what TH0001 seems to be saying is that a product like Z5 has NO filling effect yet provides protection (which seems to be exactly at odds with what you are saying).

I have not used the Z5 enough to have a valid opinion on how the product performs, sorry. The information available for this product states that it can fill and hide minor imperfections as well as protect the paint. Todd's entitled to his opinion and I'm sure it's based upon his use of the product so that's his experience, other people might have a different experience and thus a different opinion.

Hypothetically, if the Z5 or any product is leaving something behind on the surface, that is it's leaving a coating or layer of some type of substance on the surface then as I wrote in my first message, it's filling at least to some level. Now this level may not be discernible to the human eye because it's so minute but that has to do with whatever the characteristics of the substance in the product is.

Again, big picture is this thread was meant to clear up any confusion by people that think it's possible to have a wax or paint sealant that doesn't leave anything on the surface.

[RaskyR1]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

I concur!

I have people ask me all the time what I recommend for a good wax that will last 6-12 months. I usually just say a synthetic sealant will offer the longest protection but that how long a wax/sealant lasts means nothing to me. I say I go for look, feel, and ease of application when chosing a wax since I wax my car every 2nd or 3rd wash.

[yalerd]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

Do most of on this forum really care about long term durability? Most of us are going to wax our rides every couple of months if not more anyway. In the warmer weather I wax my car probably every 3 to 6 weeks, so what is the advantage of the durability. If we are not cleaning our cars we are not happy.

Just my opinion

Dave

Nailed it for us enthusiast!

[dvtldav]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

To what Mike said about some people wanting a wax/sealant to protect for a year, they are also the people who are only going to pay $5 - $6 dollars for a can of wax because they think that a wax is a wax is a wax or they do not know any better. Six months ago I knew Meguiar's waxes were better than Turtle Wax, J Wax and some of the others, but I did not know how to properly prep my car for waxing. I started out at this forum and Mother's forum trying to find the best way to maintain my new car, now this is the only forum I go to because I have learned so much here that I figure going anyplace else is just a waste of time.

Dave

[PorscheGuy997]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

Here's my take on filling:

I could care less if a protectant fills to some degree as long as the protection is not compromised.

Why?

I always clean and polish the paint before applying the protectant. The swirls and other defects have already been removed, so there isn't a need for a filler.


Cleaners that contain fillers are a huge concern. The whole point of cleaning the paint is to remove the defect. If the cleaner is filling in the problems, then I'm, in a sense, cheating the customer.

[TH0001]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

Here's my take on filling:

I could care less if a protectant fills to some degree as long as the protection is not compromised.

Why?

I always clean and polish the paint before applying the protectant. The swirls and other defects have already been removed, so there isn't a need for a filler.


Cleaners that contain fillers are a huge concern. The whole point of cleaning the paint is to remove the defect. If the cleaner is filling in the problems, then I'm, in a sense, cheating the customer.

Kind of off topic but I have yet to use an abrasive that doesn't "fill" or mask defects slightly. This is a function of the carriers or lubricants used in the polish and a result of the microfine abrasion caused by the pad against the paint.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

Kind of off topic but I have yet to use an abrasive that doesn't "fill" or mask defects slightly. This is a function of the carriers or lubricants used in the polish and a result of the microfine abrasion caused by the pad against the paint.

Two things... no three things...

1) Let's insert these words just to tighten up the concept you've shared...

to lubricate the surface during the abrading process

Like this,

This is a function of the carriers or lubricants used in the polish to lubricate the surface during the abrading process and a result of the microfine abrasion caused by the pad against the paint.

2) Finally someone outside of Meguiar's got it right

3) Good insight!


Okay with this?

[MBZ 500E]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

Do most of on this forum really care about long term durability? Most of us are going to wax our rides every couple of months if not more anyway. In the warmer weather I wax my car probably every 3 to 6 weeks, so what is the advantage of the durability. If we are not cleaning our cars we are not happy.

Just my opinion

Dave

This is so true. I think the only detailing nuts that really want durability are the ones that do it for a living and I'm sure it's only a few of their customers that really care about durability because they have their car detailed every 6 months.

I wax to enhance the paints finish and depth, protection just happens to be a good side affect.

[Mosca]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

I dunno. A few years ago I decided it didn't matter. Fill and no fill occupies an inordinate amount of some peoples' thoughts, IMO. What difference does it make? How do I know that my goals for my car's finish are the same as yours for your car? If the car looks great when I'm done, then I'm happy.

The whole deal comes down to: Maximize the finish, then maintain it with minimum touches. Once the finish is maximized, then "fill" and "no fill" have no meaning. There is only "shine" and "no shine".

Much ado about nothing, IMO. The people who argue this kind of thing are the same people who argue baserunning calls at a pickup softball game; they'd rather argue about minutiae than enjoy the fun.

[Holden_Caulfield04]

Re: Any wax that works fills to some degree

Good observation... how about a new term...

"Copy & Paste Expert"

Not a hands-on expert, but a person with the ability to search, copy and paste on-the-fly, (without giving credit to the OP).

Or

"Professional Paraphraser"

Autopia has many members like this which is why it pays to examine who is providing advice. Professionals generally provide the best advice because they have the most experience but there are one or two amateurs/hobbyists there who know more than a thing or two.

It's actually kind of annoying because it can give false expectations. I will view a product or process a certain way because of information posted there and when it comes down to it, the actual experience is different. It may be better or it may be worse.