G100/PC - Should it be spinning all the time?

[Pete-FWA]

Originally posted by Monk
The guy said to bring it over and he would check it out to make sure it is me that is defective and not the machine.

Sounds like some kind of weird health insurance plan

[RLdetail]

I believe that with the G100/Porter Cable the more pressure you apply that it is supposed to slow/stop the spinning. That is what makes it safe for "EVERYONE TO USE".

Now if you lessen the pressure it will spin freely which is what I usually do after a good buff to bring out more shine with the DA. It is still spinning be it ever so slowly. I can watch mine and it does still spin with heavy (15-20 lbs.) pressure but not very much.

It's not going to remove deep scratches like a rotary would but it will make them less noticeable.

Hope this helps a little!

[LAfirefytr]

thanks for the info RLdetail..............

[Monk]

Originally posted by LAfirefytr
thanks for the info RLdetail..............

Yeah--except there are so many threads here showing/claiming total swirl removal with the DA...

[LAfirefytr]

I CONCUR...........

[Monk]

Mine will actually rotate backwards with the slightest provocation, such as turning on its edge!

I'm sure when we figure this out we will feel pretty stupid and want to go back and delete these posts.

[LAfirefytr]

I'm not totally dogging the PC, it just hasn't performed as I thought it would and more than likely it is me and my unfamiliarity w/ the proper usage technique. It is one thing to read directions or suggestions and another to apply them. My (our) issue is probably application, like you said earlier. I know for a fact that I probably had a "how much product to use issue" because all my pads were new out of the wrapper. I would put product on and it wouldn't go any distance because the pad sucked it all up from being totally dry. I eventually would put some on and take my finger and rub it around , then apply more to get it worked in before I did my 2 x 2 area. I know that when I went to change from 83--------->80 there was 83 that had gone through and was all over the backing plate. (I cleaned it off.) I don't know if that should have been there or not. Then I changed out 80 pad and went to 9006 for #21 application, again there was product (80) all over the velcro backing plate. So...........I did have a couple of uncertainties during the detail. I'm still learning as we all are I'm sure. I just want to make sure I get all I can out of the PC and I believe that it can do more than it has so far or else people would not be buying and recommending them on here so much.

[Tim Lingor]

Originally posted by LAfirefytr
RDVT4ME---you might want to reread Mike's post concerning "using the G100 to remove swirls w/ the professional line" as that where I got recommendations on applications. It states that you are to use 15-20 pounds of pressure for applying 83 and 80 (w/ 8006) as well as removing wax (w/ bonnett and 7006). The only time you would even consider 5-10 is when you apply a wax because all you are wanting to do in this step is exactly that-JUST APPLY. There is little to no cleaning/removal here in this step. 5-10 pounds w/ 80 or 83 and you are KIDDING YOURSELF.

Let's tone it down a little. As you are new to the site, I suggest that you take a moment and look at the Meguiar's Online Forum Rules.

Forum Rules

Secondly, the amount of downward pressure that needs to be applied to the PC is determined by several factors. Being that RDVT4ME is a graduate of the NXTi Institute, a Meguiar's Sponsored training program containing advanced detailing techniques, his comments are valid. Again, it depends on several factors including paint hardness etc...

The G100 is a very gentle machine that will remove mild marring. But the machine has its limits. Assuming that the user has a lot of experience with the G100, if the swirls remain, then either they are too deep and will require a rotary buffer or the user of the tool does not have the necessary experience to remove the marring.

Either way, we are here to help one another is a freindly manner.

Tim

[LAfirefytr]

Tim, I'm not really following you. I am fully aware of the rules as I have read them: No personal attacks, no arguing w/ MOds/AdMIN (please do not cofuse this as such) Disagree but be polite (this is subjective and I'm assuming this is the rule that you are insinuating that have broken? and no bashing products or companies (to which I do not believe I was doing as I have spent hours on here researching Meguiars products, use them 100% and have spent 600.00 in last month alone on their products. If I disliked Meguiars I sure would not be on here as my time is more valuable than that.)
In response to the post to RDVT, I wasn't even posting to him early on in this thread. He chose to chime in and misquote Mike Phillips and tell me I was using to much pressure on the G100. My statement to him was reread the thread, plain and simple. If he feels the need to tell people they are doing something wrong and try to quote someone, the least he can do is get the quote correct. He stated, "15-20 lbs of pressue is WAY to much. I believe Mike recommend more like 5 lbs of pressure." For the record, that IS NOT what Mike said. I have read it. I would think that since he is a "graduate of NXTi INstitute, a Meguiars sponsored training program containg advanced detailing techniques" he would not try to tell someone that "15-20 lbs of pressure on a g100 is too much" when your own MIke Phillips wrote that this is the pressure you are suppose to use????? Which is it? I don't see where RDVT's comment here was very valid. I wasn't attacking anyone or trying to be rude. I just stated a fact that he needed to get the info correct. I wasn't telling him that he personally was kidding himself by using 5-10 w/ 80/83. I was making a generalized statement that you would be wasting your time using a G100 w/ that little pressure w/ these 2 products. I don't have to be a graduate of any Institute or a detailing expert to know this.
I think this is being way overblown. I agree that we are here to help in a friendly way, but if someone is mistaken, you should be able to correct them "politely". He gave out incorrect info and basically contradicted what Mike had posted.
I enjoy coming on here and reading info and tips. I'm not looking to stir anything up I assure you. I have learned a tremendous amount here and hope to do so in the future. I am sorry for any misunderstanding.

[Monk]

LA--I think it was the"KIDDING YOURSELF" comment that got you in trouble.

[Tim Lingor]

Originally posted by LAfirefytr
Tim, I'm not really following you. I am fully aware of the rules as I have read them: No personal attacks, no arguing w/ MOds/AdMIN (please do not cofuse this as such) Disagree but be polite (this is subjective and I'm assuming this is the rule that you are insinuating that have broken? and no bashing products or companies (to which I do not believe I was doing as I have spent hours on here researching Meguiars products, use them 100% and have spent 600.00 in last month alone on their products. If I disliked Meguiars I sure would not be on here as my time is more valuable than that.)
In response to the post to RDVT, I wasn't even posting to him early on in this thread. He chose to chime in and misquote Mike Phillips and tell me I was using to much pressure on the G100. My statement to him was reread the thread, plain and simple. If he feels the need to tell people they are doing something wrong and try to quote someone, the least he can do is get the quote correct. He stated, "15-20 lbs of pressue is WAY to much. I believe Mike recommend more like 5 lbs of pressure." For the record, that IS NOT what Mike said. I have read it. I would think that since he is a "graduate of NXTi INstitute, a Meguiars sponsored training program containg advanced detailing techniques" he would not try to tell someone that "15-20 lbs of pressure on a g100 is too much" when your own MIke Phillips wrote that this is the pressure you are suppose to use????? Which is it? I don't see where RDVT's comment here was very valid. I wasn't attacking anyone or trying to be rude. I just stated a fact that he needed to get the info correct. I wasn't telling him that he personally was kidding himself by using 5-10 w/ 80/83. I was making a generalized statement that you would be wasting your time using a G100 w/ that little pressure w/ these 2 products. I don't have to be a graduate of any Institute or a detailing expert to know this.
I think this is being way overblown. I agree that we are here to help in a friendly way, but if someone is mistaken, you should be able to correct them "politely". He gave out incorrect info and basically contradicted what Mike had posted.
I enjoy coming on here and reading info and tips. I'm not looking to stir anything up I assure you. I have learned a tremendous amount here and hope to do so in the future. I am sorry for any misunderstanding.

Thank you for your response.

The Internet is a great place to obtain information. However, because someone can not talk face to face with someone, misunderstandings occur.

So while Mike may have suggested a method of using the G100, he is giving a generality as we have to try and help as many members as we can. However, you are incorrect in stating:

I was making a generalized statement that you would be wasting your time using a G100 w/ that little pressure w/ these 2 products. I don't have to be a graduate of any Institute or a detailing expert to know this.

As I said, the amount of pressure being applied can also be determined by the paint's hardness etc (Ie. it's ability to be marred, and the effort required to remove the marring)


We at MOL have no issue at all if someone disagrees with someone else as long as the comments are handled with respect. Perhaps your comment's intent was taken out of context; Fair enough. On a site where so many different people of different origins come to visit, one must take a few seconds before posting to make sure that it will not be misunderstood.

I hope that makes sense. Again, I appreciate you taking the time to respond. If you have further questions, or comments, please send them through the PM or email me (see below). Thanks!

Now, let's get this thread back to the question at hand....

Tim

[Mike Phillips]

First off, Bob aka RDVT4ME is a very good friend of mine, his participation on this forum and at our Saturday classes and all of the other events he's participated in with Meguiar's, (which is a lot), has always been to the benefit of others. There is not a kinder, more gentle human being walking on the face of this earth.

If he mis-quoted anything I've written in the past it would an honest mistake, not for any other reason. So let's be thankful for his active participation on this forum. Thank you Bob.



Now on to the topic at hand...


The G100/Porter Cable Dual Action polisher is a tool designed originally for sanding wood. Sometime in the early 1990's, like in 1992 or 1993, Meguiar's introduced this tool and their small foam pads to the car hobby for cleaning and polishing paint.

• Just to note: When Meguiar's uses the word cleaning, and anytime you see me write the word and use it when discussing paint care, it is used to mean removing paint defects. It doesn't mean washing, and trying to use the word abrading doesn't do justice to the wide spectrum of defects the cleaning process addresses when using a Meguiar's compound, paint cleaner, cleaner/polish, or cleaner/wax.

We had been selling a small foam pad for use with the air-powered D.A. for decades for use by painters in the re-finishing industry. The problem for enthusiasts when it comes to using the air-powered D.A. as a polisher was that most people don't have an air compressor that is powerful enough to supply the air D.A with the volume and pressure of air flow over time to properly make the air D.A. function.

By placing a backing plate with Velcro on the Porter Cable wood sander, it became possible to then place one of our foam polishing pads on the Porter Cable units and duplicate the polishing action an air-powered D.A. offers with a tool the average person can plug into an electrical outlet in their garage or shop.


Now here's the skinny...

Most people will agree that the dual action polisher is more effective at removing swirls and scratches out of automotive finishes as compared to doing it by hand. We demonstrate this every weekend at our Saturday classes and over the last 2.5 years of these classes here at Meguiar's and for the last decade or two by our Professional Field Reps out in the field, Mike Pennington's 3-Day classes and the work our Special Events Team does at car shows all over the U.S., not to mention our partners world-wide at their events, Meguiar's has converted a lot of people that were die-hard by-hand-only enthusiasts and detailers over to machine polishing enthusiasts and professionals.

Most people will also agree that the dual action polisher will produce better results faster than a person can produce the same results by hand, and with less energy on their part.

Most people will also agree that the dual action polisher is a safer alternative to using a rotary buffer and that it doesn't require anywhere near the same skill level or experience to use.

So while all of the above is true, (if you disagree feel free to state this and explain your reasons why), it's still not a perfect tool for the absolute goals people want to achieve.

By absolute goals I mean that some people want their car to be shiny, (but it's okay if it still has swirls and scratches), while others want a 100% swirl-free, scratch-free, flawless mirror finish.

On some paint types this is possible, but on some paint types it's not possible. It has less to do with the machine as it does with the paint itself and it is this factor that the majority of us don't have any control over when it comes to our personal cars except to have the car repainted with a paint system that responds better to cleaning and polishing and I'm not sure there's a consensus on what brand of aftermarket paint available in the refinishing industry that would be.

But even if we could say that, Brand X paint after it fully cures and hardens, responds the best to cleaning and polishing, most of us are not going to go out and have our cars repainted because we've discovered the current paint system is less than perfect to our tastes when it comes to cleaning and polishing and more importantly, the end-results.

Point being... the tools not perfect and because we have no control over the polishability of a specific paint system, while the dual action polisher will produce professional quality results for most of us most of the time, it will not produce perfect results for everyone all of the time.

Besides all of the above, another factor that greatly influences the action of the tool, (which is the core topic of this thread), and the results we get, is the products we use. I defer back to the thread starter and quote him below...

Originally posted by Monk
DA--Let it spin or stop it down?

Am I better off letting the PC spin, or applying pressure?
(I read about the 20 pounds of pressure)?

Seems if I apply any pressure, it basically stops spinning and just vibrates.

I can't eat or sleep until I get this squared away.

Next time anyone reading this thread is working on their car, and you have both M83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish and M80 Speed Glaze and a dedicated W-8006 foam polishing pad for each of these products, find a flat panel such as the hood on your car and do a little side-by-side experiment using the same speed setting, (5.0), and as close as you can, the same pressure applied to the head of the PC, and pay attention to with which product the foam pad rotates easiest with while working the products.

If your results mimic my own experience, you will find that the dual action polisher rotates better when used with M80 Speed Glaze and will rotate less when used with M83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish. This is because the M83 is a more aggressive product so it's going to bite the finish a little more than the M80 Speed Glaze and the M80 Speed Glaze is a wetter product than the M83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish so it offers better lubricity between the face of the pad and the surface of your car's paint.

The dual action polisher removes defects, or removes paint best with it's rotating. It's simple common sense that if the combination of pad material and product is being moved over the surface versus simply vibrating or jiggling against it, that it's abrading or cleaning action is going to be more effective.

An extreme example of this is a rotary buffer where the direct-drive action of the tool moves the pad material over the surface with great force and thus it has the ability to remove a lot of paint quickly.


What's the answer? What's the solution?

At this time I don't know that there is an answer or solution to pad stoppage when using the dual action polisher to remove defects under the current circumstances.

Some options are to lighten up the pressure and trade pressure for rotating action. This will work for removing defects but the trade-off is time. Time spent gently removing paint by allowing the action of the pad and chemical to slowly clean or remove the defects.

Another option is to turn the speed setting up to 6.0, this will sometimes help, but not always as you will still see your pad stop when you're working on a panel, but it will help to keep the pad rotating. The trade-off is in increased heat generation which over time will cause the adhesive that holds the Velcro material on both the backing plate and the foam pad to de-laminate. This is why Meguiar's doesn't recommend speeds over 5.0 is because we already know what's going to happen and we don't want to be in the business of replacing foam pads for fee all day because some people choose to push technology past the limit of what is possible.

We've already had the adhesive used to hold the Velcro to both the foam pads and the backing plates re-engineered and we've hit a wall just how much heat, (over time), in conjunction with a violent oscillating action, (over time), the adhesive will endure before it will fail.

Smaller pads would mean less material in contact with the surface so less drag against the available power of the polisher. This can also have the negative effect of scouring from my experience.

Using a more powerful tool with more power to make the pad rotate despite pressure and drag. I've used a few tools that offer this and I've also noticed a scouring issue.


So there you have it as best as I can explain it using a keyboard and pixels.


The G100/Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher/PC, (whatever you want to call it), is better than hand polishing, safer than a rotary buffer, more effective and faster than a traditional, fixed-speed Orbital buffer... but still not a perfect solution.

In this how-to article,

Using the G-100 to remove swirls with the Professional Line

If you look at the pictures, I really went out into the garage and did my best, drawing from experience and duplicating the exact conditions the polisher is used under, (that is I actually placed product on the pad when operating it against the weight scale), and the measurements in pounds that the pictures show and text states are accurate to the best of my ability.


Excerpts from the above link

• Using M83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish
  When using the G100 Dual Action Polisher to remove defects, (This is different then merely applying a polish or a wax because you're trying to remove paint), you need to use a slow arm speed, overlap you passes by 50% and apply between 15 pounds and 20 pounds of pressure onto the head of the polisher.
  
  To get an idea of how hard this is to push down, simply place your polisher onto an everyday bathroom scale and then press down on the head of the polisher and take note of how hard you're pushing. If you like, you can even tape some heavy plastic around the scale as you can see that I did in the below picture and actually turn the polisher on and practice pushing down as you move the polisher around. Also listen to the sound of the motor to get an idea of how it sounds at the pressure you are applying. Make sure you have someone to hold the scale in place when you do this.
  
  15 pounds of pressure on the head of the polisher
  
  
  20 pounds of pressure on the head of the polisher
  
  
  
  Using M80 Speed Glaze
  When attempting to remove light swirls and scratches from your car's finish, use between 15 and 20 pounds of pressure to the head of the polisher. After polishing at these more aggressive pressures, you can always lighten up and make a few cover-passes at 10 to 15 pounds of pressure.
  
  For very light polishing, you need only apply between 10 and 15 pounds of pressure to the head of the polisher.
  
  
  For a little more aggressive cleaning action with the M80 Speed Glaze, increase your pressure to the 18, 19 and 20 pound range.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Applying a wax after the cleaning step
  Use 5 to 6 pounds of pressure for applying a wax after a dedicated cleaning and polish step
  
  
  
  9 to 11 pounds of pressure for applying a wax if you need a little cleaning power when you're applying the wax
  
  
  
  
  Note about the pressure applied to the head of the polisher...
  
  I've placed my hand on a scale before and often times guesstimated how hard to push down on the buffer head, but today I covered our bathroom scale with a thick plastic from a bag I cut up, taped it securely around the scale, then experimented running the polisher over the scale using the correct pad and chemical to try as best as I could to duplicate the exact thing I would do if I we're working on a real car.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  I've polished out hundreds of cars using both the rotary buffer and the dual action polisher and have a pretty good feel for how much pressure to apply depending on what you want to accomplish.
  
  To tell you the truth, I was quite surprised by the scale readings myself. I posted a range because that's truly how the dual action polisher works, it works within a range of pressure not a set number. Another factor is the condition of the paint, paint with only light swirls will only need pressure in the 15 pound range while paint with really deep swirls and harder paint will require pressure in the upper range running anywhere from 17 to 20, maybe even bumping over 20.
  
  It was not a perfect system, but I'm confident the numbers are in the real world correct range. If you have a scale, and you have experience polishing out swirls with a dual action polisher using a foam pad like our W-8006 foam polishing pad, give it a try and compare notes.
  
  Also when applying a wax, I found a little more than the weight of the polisher, yet enough to keep the pad flat against the finish was around the 10 pound range. For more cleaning ability, a person could apply a tad more pressure, so the range depends upon what you're trying to do.
  
  These are all just suggestions, or course you can experiment with your car's finish and determine what works best for you.
  
  Remember, it's not just about breaking down abrasives; it's about removing below surface defects. You remove below surface defects by removing the upper level paint that surrounds them.
  
  Gliding the dual action polisher over a clear coat finish will not remove paint. Pushing down on the polisher, moving it slowly and the combination of time, your pad choice, chemical and oscillating action, gently and carefully abrade and remove small amounts of paint which levels the finish and thus removes the defects.

I hope this helps...

[RDVT4ME]

Hey LA,

I'm sorry for any misunderstanding. I hope you will always feel welcome on this forum. It's a great place with great people.

At earlier Saturday Meguiars classes Mike did indicate that we should use 5 lbs of pressure (I spoke with Mike this morning about this). Since then, Mike did some actual measurements (as you saw in his post) and found that what he thought was 5 lbs was actually quite a bit more. I did not see his new measurement and that is why I made my comment about using 5 lbs vs. 20 lbs. My intention was only to help, I meant no dissrespect.

Whether its 5 lbs or 20 lbs or 50 lbs, I think the best way to know how much pressure to use is to actually see it in action by someone, like Mike or 2hotford or superior shine or octaneguy, who knows what they are doing. That's why I have attended numberous Meguiars traing classes....learn from the pro's first hand.

Again, I do appologize for any problems this has caused.

[Monk]

I am sorry that my thread appears to have led to some perceived acrimony or more work for Mike or 2hotford. Mike's response was very thorough and time-consuming, and basically caused by me whining out of ignorance and frustration. I am fine with this thread being deleted, or the information set up in a different thread, or any offending posts being deleted or what ever you guys want to do.

[LAfirefytr]

I too am sorry for the misunderstanding very very much. If any of you have the chance to meet me in the future you will find that I too am a very easy person to get along with and will do anything I can for people. I deeply regret the life this thread took and now that it's back on track I hope to keep it that way.

RDVT4Me Let me apologize to you directly as I meant no ill will but simply made a terrible judgement in words and statement. I was not trying to direct the "your kidding yourself" at you, more I was using it as a generalization. Sorry my brother.

Mike, thanks for the info and explanation. I used to be a sales rep for and abrasives company as well as a rep for DYNABRADE (woodworking area mostly and some auto/body shop applications) so I know a good deal about pneumatics and the volume/psi required to accomplish results. On the auto body side I sold mostly the required abrasives and some machines occasionally. Most DA's were sold on the woodworking side so I'm familiar w/ them being pneumatic and not electric. I guess I should have considered that most electric DA's will not be as aggresive as an air will and that's why the PC is safe for all to use. I appreciate you and the other Mods taking time to relay info to us. I saw the thread where you talked about the different applications and correct amount of pressure and just took it as gospel. I thought that was simply" the" correct way and when RDVT said 15-20 was way too much, I got confused ....

Tim, thanks for the response and please accept my sincere apology. I will word my responses much more carefully in the future as to not come off so abrasive.

As a side note I am seriously considering coming to the Tampa class. It will be like a 9.5 hour drive as I live on the Gulf Coast (where Katrina hit....bad) but that will probably be as close as it will be offered anytime soon I'm sure. I've got to get the details ironed out but I know I need to see some experienced detailers demoing the PC and products and to get some hands on instruction to get the most of my investments.

Thanks for what you all do. It is appreciated.