Wow! I just found this in a year old thread about M105 vs M86

[10degreesbtdc]

I thought this was worth bringing back. I hope this is ok to copy and paste instead of posting onto the end of an old thread? The thread can be found here: http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/sho...ght=m105+kevin

Gotta say it again, I love this forum! I learn something, usually more than one thing, every time I log on. If I could only remember everything I read long enough to try it at the next opportunity. Old age, I guess.

Anyway...

In this post Mr. Brown repeats a member's questions (in italics) about M105 Ultra Cut Compound and M86 Solo Cut & Polish Cream (both non-diminishing abrasive products) and his opinion follows.

My opinions...

1) Both products contain the same non dimishing abrasive.
Both utilize non-diminishing abrasives. I would not be able to confirm or dispute that the particulate is the exact same in both products. I suspect that they are different.

2) M105 has more cut than M86 Solo on any given pad.
This is almost always TRUE. However, on two occasions I've achieved a flatter and faster cut with M86. I believe that the culprit was VERY fresh paint, not yet fully cured (To the point of being able to push on the paint and leave a fingerprint, that would then disappear after a minute or so).

Additionally, M86 yields superior results if you find yourself polishing very DRY paint. More specifically, the paint is chronologically old, or it has prematurely aged due to chemical or environmental damage, or, perhaps the paint was doomed from the moment it was sprayed (Due to painter-miscalculation during the mixing process).

3) M86 Solo has longer working time than M105.
I tend to agree with you. M105 will dust away after some time, whereas M86 stays 'wet' longer. However, the abrasive particulate and a little bit of moisture will remain in the pad (but not easily transfer to the paint) with the M105. Not that I recommend it, but a spritz of water on the surface of the paint prior to re-polishing without adding more M105 will prove that the remnants of M105 trapped in the pad will still cut impressively.

4) M86 finishes down flawless with a finishing pad on all paint, whereas M105 may be too strong (though i have only seen people use a polishing pad with M105).
On some paints you'll see a bit of micro-hazing with M105, but this is generally a side-effect of using 'traditional' procedures pertaining to compound/pad combinations.

What I mean is, once you've eliminated defects, you should clean the pad (or change the pad to a fresh one), and use a MINIMUM amount of M105. Do NOT prime the pad with water or wipe-down spray (such as M34 Final Inspection)- Instead, apply M105 to the pad and massage it in so that you've got complete coverage of the pad with the M105. Then, use the slowest speed setting (600-1000 r.p.m.), and FIRM pressure, not light pressure. The abrasive in M105 is very small and exact in particulate size, so a bit more downward pressure than you'd normally use with a non-diminishing abrasive will suffice.

Think in terms of how you'd want to wetsand a panel using, say, Unigrit 3000 grade. Firm pressure ensures an adequate cut. Even if you pushed a little too hard, it's doubtful you'd encounter much scouring or inconsistent cutting, because the particulate size is small and consistent. You'd just cut aggressively, consistently, and quickly. If you did NOT use a deliberate and firm pressure, but rather, you used a very light touch, the effect may be inconsistent cutting of the paint, and when you're using a paper with such a small grit-size, you'd be disappointed in the results.


On the Meguiars cutting scale I assume that M86 solo creme is an 8 or 9?
Good question! I'd say it's a 10, only because I've been able to easily & rapidly remove 1000 grit scratches with M86, but we'll have to have Jason or either Mike chime in here to get the official answer. It's difficult to rate because even though the cut is aggressive, it is not brutal.

As M86 is pad dependent, it seems it can cut anywhere from level 9 cut using a solo heavy cut pad to say a level 2 cut when using the solo finishing pad. With M105, is it recommended to use it in a similar fashion as a 1 liquid system?
It is NOT recommended by Meguiar's. However, I have done it several times, on various paint types, with spectacular results. As is the case any time you use a product outside the realm of the recommendations of Meguiar's- The results can be inconsistent, and the responsibility falls in your lap.

M105 is listed as a compound yet i have seen people using it with a polishing pad and getting near LSP ready. Would it be possible to use M105 with a light cutting solo pad and then using M105 on a finishing pad to get a flawless finish?
Yes! Just refer to the last answer on this one.

[Tuck91]

Re: Wow! I just found this in a year old thread about M105 vs M86

M86 doesnt seem to get too much air time on here. Do they call it Solo because it finishes out so nice and dosent need to be followed up with something less aggressive usually?

is it a cleaner/polish or a compound?

[10degreesbtdc]

Re: Wow! I just found this in a year old thread about M105 vs M86

Tuck, I think it's part of the Solo System One Liquid Line. What I found interesting is:

When to use one or the other
When M105 can cause micro marring
When M86 might be a better choice due to dried out paint
How to wet a pad, wring it out, then prime it to get non-diminishing abrasive products work longer before flashing
How a pro can use either one with a finer pad and finish LSP ready!
How to apply more pressure during the "gloss" pass on low speed
Why to not use a primed pad (the same pad used in defect removal) to bring up gloss after defect removal
The analogy to wet sanding and to use more pressure on the last pass with a clean or fresh pad really made me think. I have not been using enough pressure when burnishing, it seems.
I'm probably forgetting something. Have to read it again!

[PorscheGuy997]

Re: Wow! I just found this in a year old thread about M105 vs M86

M86 doesnt seem to get too much air time on here. Do they call it Solo because it finishes out so nice and dosent need to be followed up with something less aggressive usually?

is it a cleaner/polish or a compound?

Yeah, I wish more people would give M86 (Solo) a shot. If M105 is acting up, M86 is your best bet. It always works in every condition.

The Solo line was the first non-diminishing product for Meguiar's. Basically, you have one liquid (M86) and a selection of pads to choose from. By using a more or less aggressive pad, you can adjust the cut for different purposes.

Even though it can remove wet sanding marks with a wool pad, you can use it with the finishing pad and refine the finish. The finish is better than M105 on a finishing pad, but it is not as fine as M205 and a finishing pad.

I agree with Kevin about the cut. It's not super aggressive, but it can still accomplish a lot.

[Tuck91]

Re: Wow! I just found this in a year old thread about M105 vs M86

okay, its pad dependant. Sounds like a great system. I never understood it but now I do.

It doesnt get talked about too much around here.

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Wow! I just found this in a year old thread about M105 vs M86

I LOVE M86, but like others I sometimes forget to reach for it.

I have 1-stepped single stage paints with M86 that had severe swirls and ended up flawless and wet. Great product...

[KC's]

Re: Wow! I just found this in a year old thread about M105 vs M86

HI guys i echo the same words of Matt Davies (meguairs asia)
as M86 work better for fresh paint (where it is still soft)
my Solo experience is not so satisfaction compare with M105

I tried to Cut A MB-124 masterpiece, need too much time to cut its deep scratches
even with the burgundy wool, if i have got M105, i would have save at least 1/3 of the time & the results is more satisfactory

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Wow! I just found this in a year old thread about M105 vs M86

HI guys i echo the same words of Matt Davies (meguairs asia)
as M86 work better for fresh paint (where it is still soft)
my Solo experience is not so satisfaction compare with M105

I tried to Cut A MB-124 masterpiece, need too much time to cut its deep scratches
even with the burgundy wool, if i have got M105, i would have save at least 1/3 of the time & the results is more satisfactory

Well M105 is intended to be a more aggressive product, so in many cases, that will be the case.

There are other times with certain conditions that M86 may out-perform M105 (as Kevin pointed out).

For example, I rotary polished an entire single stage airplane with M86 and a yellow Meguiar's polishing pad from DEEP, 8 years worth of swirls to 100% correction in a single pass. Zero holograms, zero problems. It looked dripping wet.

With M105 (I tested) it looked as if it might have needed a second pass. On an airplane of the size I was working on, that would have been another 15 hours minimum. Goes to show the importance of having multiple tools in the old tool bag...

Couple pictures of the plane... (check in the sun, too, about 2 weeks later and it was truly perfect).

BEFORE


AFTER



Then again, back to the concept of different cars playing by different rules, I polished this entire Jeep with nothing but M105 on a polishing pad and a rotary. Look how wet, deep, and hologram free the finish is:








Man I love working with Meguiar's new products, they make it so easy