M105 Tip

[Mike Pennington]

Re: M105 Tip

Would this be the result of the micro abrasives that are left which are on the wool pad and paint being lubricated and used again since they don't break down?

When I did tried this with 151 and a Solo Wool pad, I was buffing the car with 151, thought it looked okay, but after misting the pad with Last Touch and rebuffing, the surface area looked much better.

Which of the products can be used in this fashion?

Meguiar's Official Position

Using a wetting-agent with M105 and M205

There has been some discussions regarding using a supplemental wetting agent to assist in the buffing process. We thought we would share our thoughts.

We know that optimum buffing results are achieved with the right amount of lubrication and when the paint surface/pad are kept clean using the right methods. We also know that ambient temperature and humidity play a role in the intended performance of all products.

We have observed the three main reasons someone might be inclined to use a supplemental wetting agent:

• The Mfg recommends it as part of the process

• The climate is working against desired or optimal polishing performance

• The user prefers an adjusted buffing cycle

With that said, all of our formulations are designed and developed to perform best when used without any type of supplemental wetting agent. (supplemental wetting agent would be considered water or any other chemicals that are sprayed into the pad or onto the surface while buffing).

While we know people use water and other liquids to do this, we do not recommend or advocate this as a process for best results. Best results can most often be achieved without a supplemental wetting agent by applying our machine polishing products, as prescribed, in the directions which are on the product label.

We know there are other Mfg’s recommending supplemental wetting agents in their process, so if you try this technique to experiment, we would highly recommend only using M34 Final Inspection for the wetting agent.

M34 Final Inspection will have the least effect on our formulations from an overall performance stand point. M34 Final Inspection is our recommended product for priming new or dry buffing pads, thus our product development and pre-market testing supports this use.

M34 Final Inspection is validated as the most compatible with our machine polishing products, while water or other supplemental wetting agents have not been validated.

We hope this helps...

[AeroCleanse]

Re: M105 Tip

Mike,

I understand that is Meguiar's current position. However if the official position does not give the results desired and another method does, perhaps Meguair's should change its official position.

I have been unimpressed with M105 using the official method. If I try the other method and it works better, I will be using that method, or just not use M105 anymore.

[Mike Pennington]

Re: M105 Tip

We certainly respect the fact that you and others may use the wetting agent method with great results. We would encourage you to continue if that is the case. However, our goal is to caution new users that using a wetting agent is not our preferred or recommended method to begin with

Thanks for understanding !

Mike

PS - We would be curious to hear your comments on the new M105 and to see if you would still feel that way

[Kevin Brown]

Re: M105 Tip

For clarification...
The original post was referring to original formula M105 as used with a rotary machine.

At no time during the the original post did I recommend that water be introduced into the buffing cycle as a way to ADD lubrication. In fact, adding water to the equation often can REDUCE lubrication. This is why I mentioned in the post that the user would likely see an increase in swirling:

"I think you'll see a 50% improvement in the cut, but you'll probably see an increase in swirling (it can be easily removed)."

The reason I recommended a mist of water in this situation was not for the purpose of adding lube. A follow-up post in the same thread was very specific as to why I believe that the addition of water helps the cutting performance:

"With a wool pad, the application of water is not so much needed as lubrication, but it helps to loosen the abrasive from the wool fibers (allowing the abrasives to roll about freely between the pad and paint surface). It also helps the pad more easily contour to the paint surface (effectively increasing the surface-area of the pad per revolution)."

Water can actually displace lubricating agents from the pad and paint surface. Sure, it may momentarily act as a lube, but it is not long lasting and not necessarily slippery. If anything, water is simply a wetting agent. The water wets the wool fibers, makes them more pliable & bendable, helps to readjust the abrasive particle's positioning. Once the wool fibers moisten, the wool fibers may adjust disposition and end up lying tightly against each other; the individual fibers may also more readily contour (or glide upon) the paint surface. The momentary increase in weight water can add certainly affects the pad's rotating force... and on and on and on. So, an assumption that water can only affect the buffing procedure as a lubricating agent is false.

If you're wondering about using a supplemental wetting agent every time you use a rotary and original formula M105, the follow-up post mentions:

"While the misting of water will help the foam more rapidly remove defects, you're likely going to see a decrease in cycle-length (as compared to a no water), and an increase of stuck-on abrasive (to the pad itself). With a foam pad, there are no fibers to twist, bend, and reshape (helping to loosen the abrasive). Further, the foam has lots of tiny pockets that the abrasive can enter (and then attach to). Water seems to speed the onset of abrasive-clumping (not a good thing when final polishing). The particles gather and fill the pad pores. A layer of flash-dried abrasive rapidly covers the pad, and will require major cleaning (water & soap, or a pad cleaning machine)."

I mentioned water because the original poster was being bombarded with recommendations, most of which required him to purchase additional items. Since I knew he would have water at his disposal, I felt that it was the simplest product he could use without having to purchase anything else. Of course, M34 is a mainstay in our industry and would have been a great candidate, too.

Finally, there was no guarantee given that this method would work:

"I won't PROMISE a better result, but I am pretty sure you're going to GET a better result."

Hope this helps to clear things up.
I am here to: help, educate, entertain, and learn!

[asim_296]

Re: M105 Tip

thanks everyone for the great clarification.

[Justin Murphy]

Re: M105 Tip

That clears things up a lot Kevin.
Thanks........once again.