compounding/polishing by hand? what products?

[KNanthrup]

Are there Meguiars products that will work to compound and buff a new paint job by hand after wetsanding? I have a solid black Acrylic Enamel (no clear coat) job I just did and after waiting a week im prepping to wetsand the imperfections out. I'll probably finish with 2000grit then I need to compound.

I was wondering which Meguiars product I should use to compound and smoothe out the 2000grit scratches by hand. Will I need to use 2 compounds in sequence to remove the heavier duty compound scratches or is there one that will cut the 2000grit scratches and leave a clean scratch/swirl free result? I plan on finishing up with some #7 show car glaze that I already have. I would love to be able to use a rotary to compound but I don't have the cash and im leaving for college in a month so don't want to spend the money I just want to finish this one project.

Thanks guys,

[Mike Phillips]

Even though you say this is a single stage acrylic enamel paint job, modern acrylic enamel paint is much different than acrylic enamel paint made in the 1950's and 1960's unless you're using some old stock, it might not be as soft as you think it is to work on.

In the old days, you could user our M04 and M01 by hand to remove defects out of paint, this would include sanding marks, but it's a lot of work and will not produces results even remotely close to what a machine can do.

This was back when paint was much softer and more workable also. The first thing you want to do is to test a small area and see if you can remove the sanding marks by hand at all. Whatever you do, don't sand down the entire car until you insure you can work on and make one small area look good.

Also, your paint is going to continue to harden with time until it reaches full cure and maximum hardness, your window of time to do this work is ticking by.


Rubbing a paint job out by hand is a lot of work and requires a high level of skill, it's typically not something you dive into the first time and expect to be easy, fast or guaranteed great results no matter whose products you use.

Test a small area first and perhaps even consider renting, or borrowing a rotary buffer to do the work. Then the question will be,

Have you ever used a rotary buffer?

[KNanthrup]

Mike,
Thanks a lot for your reply. This is modern AE, not old stock. I have been tossed around on the wetsanding/buffing subject a little bit, most people have been telling me that I have to wait about a week because it's AE but that didn't sound right to me either with the same thoguht process as your post (in regards to the hardening).

I have not used a rotary buffer very extensively, only a few times with polish/wax but this was years ago and I do not own a rotary any more. I suppose if a cheap one would get the job done I would be willing to buy one but I have maxed out my budget just on the paint itself let alone the finishing. I can see such a tool as being a very solid investment, however I will not be doing any such jobs for a few years while i am away.

So, I was hoping to do it by hand if possible. If this is very unlikely to be successful (as it sounds), do you think it is possible to buy a cheap rotary buffer and use some recommended meguiars products to compound and buff the surface?

Can you give me an idea of what compounds would work best for my situation? What about rotary buffer use/tips?

Thanks a lot!

p.s. I am not overly worried about using a fairly aggressive compound (if needed to break the hard paint) as I layed out the paint in very thick layers. I test sanded a spot before final coating with dry 400 grit and still did not burn through the paint.

[KNanthrup]

or, in another direction my thinking has taken me...

perhaps if I finish with an ever finer grit paper I will not have as much trouble compounding? I was thinking that if, perhaps, I went down as far as 2500 or 3000grit instead of just 2000 that hand compounding would be easier, or if I had to rotary compound I could use a less aggressive compound for safer inexperienced use on my new paint?

[KNanthrup]

Ok today I picked up some #2 fine-cut cleaner recommended by the lady at the body/paint store because it allows for hand application. I tried it out after finishing my wetsanding with #2000 but it was not able to remove the sanding scratches.

(Either that or it was making it's own scratches but I am pretty sure it was the sanding scratches)

I followed #2 up with some Scratch X I had around, but still did not help. I then topped it with #7 just to see what it looked like. Great gloss and shine from about 5ft. or further but in the light the scratches are very visible all over.

So, I guess I am going to need something more aggressive and probably applied by machine.

I did find an old oscillating orbital 6" buffer in my garage. Is there any way I can use one of meguiars compounds or cleaners with this and get some decent results?

It sounds like I need to jump up a notch here to something more aggressive like #4, #84, or #85? Can any of those be applied by orbital or do they have to be done by rotary?

Thanks,

[Mike Phillips]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're trying to do the job without the right tools. You need a rotery buffer to sand down the entire car and then buff out your sanding marks out of the entire car.

As far as using an orbital buffer to remoe sanding marks, read this,

Rotary vs PC vs Regular Orbital Buffer


First, let's start with the information in Meguiar's *NEW* FAQ



2. What's the difference between?

* Dual-Action polisher
* Orbital buffer
* Rotary buffer


Dual-Action polishers and Orbital buffers

The motors and drive units on these two types of polisher's oscillate in an eccentric circular motion. This type of motion is much safer to the paint because it's virtually impossible to apply too much concentrated pressure in one place at one time. Chances are good that when too much pressure is applied, the oscillating action will come to a stop thereby protecting the finish.

Because these types of machines oscillate instead of rotate, they will not instill the dreaded buffer swirls or holograms into your finish as long as you use the appropriate chemicals, buffing pads and bonnets. This safety feature makes these machines highly popular with enthusiasts who would like to use a machine but at the same time, are afraid of burning or inflicting swirls into their car's finish.

Both the G-100 and Orbital buffers offer a number of benefits:

* Uncomplicated – Remove from box, attach buffing pad or bonnet, plug in, turn on, start buffing.

* Versatile – Can be used for cleaning, polishing, and applying waxes.

* Takes most of the labor out of the process, the machine does the work, all you do is hold it.

* Faster, more thorough - you can cover more area and do a better job with a machine.

* Creates a more uniform, higher gloss finish than your hands.

* Pushes polishing oils and protective waxes into the pores and microscopic surface imperfections far better than your hands can ever accomplish.



In recent years, the Porter Cable Dual-Action polisher (G-100) has become the machine of choice over the older style Orbital buffers for a number of different reasons:


* Smaller size and lighter weight makes them easier for anyone to use.

* Very easy to control, requires no previous experience or skill to use correctly.

* Smaller size enables you to work on small panels and tight areas easier with better control.

* More options for buffing pads and bonnets.

* Velcro® interface makes changing between pads fast and easy.


Rotary buffers

Rotary buffers are drastically different in the way they work compared to Dual-action polishers and Orbital buffers.

The drive unit used in a rotary buffer is referred to as a direct drive. What this means is the auger, (the threaded part to which the backing plate attaches), is driven directly off the electric motor. This results in a powerful rotating motion. This rotating motion is typically clockwise as you look at the rotary buffer from behind, as though you were using it on a panel.

Because the rotary buffer is a direct drive machine, it can do a lot of work very quickly. By work, we mean, the rotary buffer will remove paint.

Meguiar's understands the average person doesn't want to remove precious paint from their car's finish. However, sometimes removing paint is necessary in order to create a high gloss, defect-free finish. Example: If you have a scratch in your car's finish, say someone keyed your car, or a cat jumped up on the hood and left behind claw scratches. From a horizontal point of view, these scratches would look like this,



In order to remove these scratches, you will need to remove enough paint surrounding the scratches in order to make the surface level. As you can see in this example, removing the scratches will require removing quite a bit of paint material, and in the case of the deep key scratch (where the arrow is pointing), you will not be able to completely remove it without exposing the base, or color coat of paint. This is a situation where you are better off improving the scratch, not completely removing the scratch.

Second Example: Many cars, after being painted, are wet-sanded in order to remove orange peel or to bring the surface to a show car quality finish. After the finish has been sanded, the way you remove the sanding marks is to buff the finish with a cutting compound and a rotary buffer. The cutting compound abrades the paint, removing, or leveling the finish until it’s completely flat.

After the surface is buffed flat, it will then be polished with a cleaner/polish like Meguiar’s M-83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish with the rotary buffer to restore a swirl-free, high gloss finish. Rotary buffers are necessary to do both of these procedures because both of these procedures require that some portion of the paint is removed.

Dual-action polishers and Orbital buffers do not have an aggressive enough action to remove small particles of paint in an effort to remove most defects, including sanding marks. This is the same reason Dual-action polishers and Orbital buffers are safe… they don’t have an aggressive action, thus they are safe. However, because they are safe (do not have an aggressive action), they are not aggressive enough to remove all but the finest of scratches.

Do not purchase a dual action polisher or orbital buffer hoping to use these to remove major or even minor scratches, as they are just not aggressive enough. They can often be used to remove fine or shallow scratches and swirls, but they will not remove any scratch that is deep enough to place your fingernail into.

Remember, using a rotary buffer successfully requires both skill and experience. If you use a rotary buffer and are not skilled in its use, you can easily apply too much pressure to the paint and burn right through it, requiring a new paint job. This same result can happen if you use a buffing pad attached to an electric drill.

[KNanthrup]

Ok I got that part, thanks Mike.

My next question would be... if I were to use a rotary (after practice/experience) what products are recommended for that initial compounding from #2000 wetsanding?

Is this where say #84 or #85 would come in, followed by a less agressive cleaner like #80 or #2?

Do you have any initial tips for rotary buffer use? ie. speed, pressure, what to absolutely avoid. If I buy/borrow/rent one I have a hood that I can practice on with no worries.

[the other pc]

Originally posted by KNanthrup
...Do you have any initial tips for rotary buffer use? ...

The subject has it’s own forum: Mastering the Rotary Buffer


PC.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by KNanthrup
Ok I got that part, thanks Mike.

My next question would be... if I were to use a rotary (after practice/experience) what products are recommended for that initial compounding from #2000 wetsanding?

Is this where say #84 or #85 would come in, followed by a less agressive cleaner like #80 or #2?

Do you have any initial tips for rotary buffer use? ie. speed, pressure, what to absolutely avoid. If I buy/borrow/rent one I have a hood that I can practice on with no worries.

Start with an investment of $10.00 by purchasing this how-to video.

http://www.meguiars.com/?pro-car-detailing-accessories/Professional-Education-Series-Video