Swirls under Wax

[swamper8]

I apologize in advance, this will be a long post but I want to give lots of details.
Probably about a year ago I bought a car and the finish was pretty trashed (dings and scrapes/scratches/scuffs) I started with "least agressive as necessary" (bought a meguiars dual action and used some SwirlX from Walmart) That literally didn't "put a dent" in the damage so I eventually worked my way to a Makita rotary buffer/M105/W7207 red cutting pad. I spent alot of time watching videos (here and on you-tube)

That took alot of damage off, anything remaining would have needed either wet sanding or just not repairable without a re-spray. I followed the above up with a W8207 pad and M205. The car looked great and I finished with two applications of Meguiars wax. (paste)

The car looked good about 95% of the time, but I realized that when I caught it in the sun there were swirls EVERYWHERE.
I waited a few months (was completely frustrated) and went back and decided I needed to go back with the W8207 pad/M205 and do another pass over the car. When I was done I re-waxed. Again, once it was in sunlight it looked almost as bad as before.

So I need some advice on how to fix it. I did not remove my initial application of wax before I tried again with the W8207/M205. I wonder if I just buffed my wax or would the W8207/M205 remove my wax?

I wonder if I need to go to a automotive finish store, buy something that removes wax and take the wax off first. Then maybe use a different compound/pad.

I have:
Makita Rotary buffer
Meguiar's Dual Action polisher
7207/8207/9207 pads (meguiars)
M105/M205/scratchX/swirlX

Any advice would be appreciated. I don't have any pictures, but it basically looks like someone went nuts with a rotary buffer even though I spent several weeks trying to educate myself before I started this project.

oh, I did clay the car first and when using the rotary I always stayed at low RPMs (1200?) if I remember correctly.

[CHzo6]

Re: Swirls under Wax

If you clayed the car first, you most likely removed all the existing wax. Even the "couple of months" in between probably did most of the wax in anyways.
Using a rotary takes a ton of experience before you can do it without putting any holograms or swirls into it. Reading and watching videos is a lot different than using it. If you can get an old hood or panel from a body shop, you should use that to practice up on. However, the 205 and the polishing pad should remove a lot of minor holograms and swirls if used properly.
I would suggest trying to 205 or the SwirlX on the polishing pad with the DA with good technique first, and if that doesn't cut it, move up to either Ultimate Compound or the 105 on the DA with a polishing pad.

[swamper8]

Re: Swirls under Wax

thanks, I tried easing into the rotary and heed all the warnings I'd read/watched about amateurs using them. The only reason I went that route was because the DA I bought literally did NOTHING. The damage was/is pretty bad. I now know that the car just needs a repaint. But anyways, thanks for the advice. I guess I will go back, clay the car very well (didn't realize claying removed wax) and then try my DA with an 8207 and some 205. Is 205 more or less aggressive than ultimate compound? I have both in hand

[CHzo6]

Re: Swirls under Wax

Ultimate Compound is more aggressive than 205.

[FinalTouchDetail]

Re: Swirls under Wax

My guess is that you inflicted all of the damage with the rotary. You probably made it look great in the shade, but as soon as it hit the sun you saw all of the holograming the was inflicted from the rotary.

You can do a LOT with a PC, proper product, and time.

This neon I just detailed definitely needed wetsanding and multiple stages of polishing, but I was able to get a lot done with a porter cable, M105 and an orange lake country pad: http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=43973

Just because the PC doesn't correct as quickly as the rotary (although it's much safer on the finish) doesn't mean you can't get results. Technique has a lot to do with it.

I suggest working with powerful halogens on your finish next time so you can see your area as you work to see holograms forming or swirls.

[swamper8]

Re: Swirls under Wax

so you used M105 with a cutting pad on a DA? That's an interesting combination. trying to remember back to when I did my heaviest research, I believe M105 is a cutting liquid and the LC orange pad is also a cutting pad. I thought I remembered reading that you weren't supposed to use cutting pads/compounds with a DA. But, the Neon looks great, no swirls etc like mine has so obviously it worked out well. I definitely will set myself up with some better lighting this time. I had none when I did the work. well, just natural out-door light, nothing supplimental though....

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Swirls under Wax

My guess is that you inflicted all of the damage with the rotary. You probably made it look great in the shade, but as soon as it hit the sun you saw all of the holograming the was inflicted from the rotary.

You can do a LOT with a PC, proper product, and time.

Agreed.

From the sounds of it, here's what we believe is going on:

The rotary buffer, W7207 foam cutting pad and M105 is a pretty aggressive combination. If you aren't highly skilled with the rotary then the potential for inflicting holograms/buffer trails/swirls is pretty darn high. Even a very skilled rotary user is going to end up with some level of hologramming at this stage - it's perfectly normal to have some. This is a case where an aggressive process was needed to correct severe defects, but you can't expect the really aggressive process to finish out perfectly so you follow up with a less aggressive step. You did this, but still with the rotary buffer. Even with a softer pad and less aggressive product, like the W8207/M205 you used, you can still end up with holograms/swirls/ect unless you're really good with the tool. And good only comes with experience.

So, what to do? Well, the severe defects are now gone, thanks to the rotary and aggressive pad/liquid. The defects you now have should be easily removed with the D/A as they are far, far less severed than what you started with. So, step down to the D/A and experiment first with the W8207 pad and M205 and then with the W9207 pad and M205. Depending on the paint and the level of hologramming you may or may not need the extra bite of the W8207 - hard to say without trying it first so do a test spot. Run the D/A at speed 5 to start, finish at a slower speed if a little experimentation shows a benefit from this. This tool can't inflict the same sort of hologramming that the rotary can and will due to the way it moves the pad. But it certainly has the power to correct the defects caused by the rotary.

[FinalTouchDetail]

Re: Swirls under Wax

so you used M105 with a cutting pad on a DA? That's an interesting combination. trying to remember back to when I did my heaviest research, I believe M105 is a cutting liquid and the LC orange pad is also a cutting pad. I thought I remembered reading that you weren't supposed to use cutting pads/compounds with a DA. But, the Neon looks great, no swirls etc like mine has so obviously it worked out well. I definitely will set myself up with some better lighting this time. I had none when I did the work. well, just natural out-door light, nothing supplimental though....

M105 and an Orange Lake Country pad is my go-to combination on the Porter Cable for serious paint issues.

For slightly less serious issues I go to Menzerna SIP with the Orange Pad.

If you were working outdoors (which I assume you were because you said you had out-door lighting) then you may have also run into a situation of the product drying too fast on the surface resulting in dry buffing and swirling/scratching. When working outdoors be VERY aware of your product and how it is breaking down. 105 works INCREDIBLY fast even in controlled environments.

As said though, if holograms are your only problem now then you are in a good position to refine the finish with a DA polisher of some type.

[swamper8]

Re: Swirls under Wax

thank you gentlemen, I will do everything you've suggested, it all sounds perfectly logical. I'm actually glad to hear I need to go back to my DA because I bought it brand new and only used it once or twice. I'll give my rotary a rest ha ha It's been 90-100 degree's here lately though so I don't think I'm going to be able to do much for a while. No garage. It's like 75-80 when I leave for work in the morning (7AM) so I'll have to wait for the weather to break. I did have problems with product drying when I first worked on the car. That probably just added insult to injury.

[swamper8]

Re: Swirls under Wax

Well i spent about 4 hours on the car today. I didn't have much of the M105/205 left, and those are order-and-wait items for me so I decided to go with the yellow diamond meguiar's pad and some Ultimate Compound. I considered the swirls/holograms moderate on my car, so I believe(ed) that UC would do ok for me. (between M105 and M205?) . I washed/stripped/clayed the entire car and then went at it with my Meg's G110 and the UC. Went nice and slow and spent a lot of time on each panel. I checked each side in the sun after I finished. I'd say I got out about 95% of all the damage I inflicted. I followed it up with two coats of wax. I think there was more to gain if I went with even a milder pad/compound (like black pad and M205) but the paint is just so trashed it'd be like trying to polish a turd. I'm happy with it and no longer embarassed to drive it around in the bright sunlight.

I'm linking to the pictures because when I try to embed them in this thread they come out HUGE.

http://www.turbojetta.net/before_1.jpg

http://www.turbojetta.net/before_2.jpg

http://www.turbojetta.net/before_3.jpg

http://www.turbojetta.net/after_1.jpg

http://www.turbojetta.net/after_2.jpg

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Swirls under Wax

Nice turnaround there swamper!! It's amazing how aggressive a foam cutting pad can be on a rotary buffer and depending on how delicate the paint is you can cause big problems in a hurry. The good thing is that you obviously didn't do any permanent damage and that you've obviously learned a lot in pretty short order. You'll continue to build on this knowledge over time and your results will be better and achieved more quickly in the future. Good for you!