Are pads my problem, or my skill?

[StadiumDetail]

Ever since I started polishing (not too long ago) I've been having an issue with the speed of correction of heavy scratches/swirls. Just yesterday I was doing an '09 Cadillac CTS with really bad scratches on the hood, roof and trunk, probably from a very dirty tunnel car wash beating up the paint. To rid the hood of the scratches I needed around 6 passes of 105/wool @1600, if I were to use my foam cutting pad (3M white) I needed a fair bit of pressure which in my experience works fine but I've heard is a big no for the rotary.

That was just my experience with the CTS, but the problem is with all polishing jobs I do. I origionally started with 3M's pads and products since they are sold here locally, recently switched to 105/205 and it certainly made a difference.

Are pads an issue? How are 3M's pads in quality vs. Meg's? I've always assumed it was me and my technique, not the products, but I'm beginning to question that theory. I read on the forums a ton and try to learn all tricks, but I always have to use pressure on the foam pads to get any cut, and on my father's MB CLS500 it is insane how little the 105/cutting pad does to the paint. Is pressure w/rotary really that bad, I get very little heat and always follow the safest course, but it seems to be the only things that works for me.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Are pads my problem, or my skill?

M105 with a wool pad on a rotary buffer is about as aggressive as you can get and want to get when detailing daily drivers.

My guess is you're removing the shallow defects and leaving behind the RIDS

RIDS = Random Isolated Deeper Scratches


And for daily drivers you actually shouldn't focus on removing RIDS and also don't promise your customer you're going to do this and then charge accordingly.

Are you doing daily drivers or charging for show car work?

[StadiumDetail]

Re: Are pads my problem, or my skill?

The CTS was for a dealership, and they got a deal on it but they also send me a lot of business right now. Maybe I'm just thinking I'm too slow? My process was:
105/205 hood - 95% correction
105/205 Roof - 70% correction at best
105/205 trunk lid - 95% correction
205 rest of car - 85%

3.5hrs just for polishing, not rewash, clay, etc. It feels like it is too long, maybe I'm just insane

The above process used to take upwards of 5hrs using 3M's stuff, so thanks Megs for the 105/205 it is awesome.

[Kickin Griffin]

Re: Are pads my problem, or my skill?

The CTS was for a dealership, and they got a deal on it but they also send me a lot of business right now. Maybe I'm just thinking I'm too slow? My process was:
105/205 hood - 95% correction
105/205 Roof - 70% correction at best
105/205 trunk lid - 95% correction
205 rest of car - 85%

3.5hrs just for polishing, not rewash, clay, etc. It feels like it is too long, maybe I'm just insane

The above process used to take upwards of 5hrs using 3M's stuff, so thanks Megs for the 105/205 it is awesome.

3.5 hours just for the polishing - you make me sound like a positive tortoise of machine polishing!

One thing I would say, and I always try to emphasise to those detailing and any of my own customers in detailing, is that machine polishing simply takes as long as it takes. As a business model, I don't charge by the hour but rather charge by the car, so that it takes any time pressures off of me as you simply cannot predict how long it takes to mahcine polish a car. I typically find that it will take myself an my colleague a fully day to fully detail a car, and from about 11am through to 11pm (12 hours, each) is solely spent on polishing - so 3.5 hours is pretty damn quick!

Don't rush your work - see what results you can achieve by taking time, reducing your work areas to 1' square (big work areas = less correction for a given product and pad combo), and ensuring you fully work polishes you are using to ensure the best clarity delivered from the machine finish.

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Are pads my problem, or my skill?

Like Kickin Griffin suggested, it sounds like you are moving too quickly. To fully buff out a deeply swirled car (especially something the size of a CTS) will easily take 10+ hours for me.

How fast are you covering distance over the paint when moving the buffer? I wonder if you are moving too quickly.

Also, I personally have found M105 to work great around 1,000-1,100 RPM. At this speed you get more work time and can really focus on slowly covering the ground and inspecting as you work. Maybe others will chime in to the contrary, though.

[Kickin Griffin]

Re: Are pads my problem, or my skill?

Like Kickin Griffin suggested, it sounds like you are moving too quickly. To fully buff out a deeply swirled car (especially something the size of a CTS) will easily take 10+ hours for me.

How fast are you covering distance over the paint when moving the buffer? I wonder if you are moving too quickly.

Also, I personally have found M105 to work great around 1,000-1,100 RPM. At this speed you get more work time and can really focus on slowly covering the ground and inspecting as you work. Maybe others will chime in to the contrary, though.

I sometimes use #105 at this speed, generally on a polishing pad with light pressure when I am looking for a lighter cut though... I find (and this is what I love about #105) that when I use light pressure, slower speeds and a polishing pad I have a product which will cut like a medium polish (similar to #83, Menzerna Intensive Polish) and also finish down LSP ready as well on many paint types. Its a very flexible product, the #105. But for more aggressive cutting, I prefer the faster machine speeds - generally up at about 2000rpm with a cutting pad, and I use heavier pressure to increase the cut I achieve as well... Will retry slower speeds and see what like as well, as the above naturally only represents my personal technique and experience with the product on what works for me

As to speed of actual machine movement, I can be quite quick sometimes too - easily covering three or four inches per second with the machine. The paint tells me what pace to move the rotary buffer at, some paints are best worked with the machine more slowly, others more quickly - I tend to experiment a wee bit and get set up into a smooth and fluid motion, and change the pace of machine movement according to what I am doing and what stage of the machine set I am in.

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Are pads my problem, or my skill?

I sometimes use #105 at this speed, generally on a polishing pad with light pressure when I am looking for a lighter cut though... I find (and this is what I love about #105) that when I use light pressure, slower speeds and a polishing pad I have a product which will cut like a medium polish (similar to #83, Menzerna Intensive Polish) and also finish down LSP ready as well on many paint types. Its a very flexible product, the #105. But for more aggressive cutting, I prefer the faster machine speeds - generally up at about 2000rpm with a cutting pad, and I use heavier pressure to increase the cut I achieve as well... Will retry slower speeds and see what like as well, as the above naturally only represents my personal technique and experience with the product on what works for me

As to speed of actual machine movement, I can be quite quick sometimes too - easily covering three or four inches per second with the machine. The paint tells me what pace to move the rotary buffer at, some paints are best worked with the machine more slowly, others more quickly - I tend to experiment a wee bit and get set up into a smooth and fluid motion, and change the pace of machine movement according to what I am doing and what stage of the machine set I am in.

Well there you go I expected someone would chime in about M105 working well at high speeds, because I do know that it can be effective there, too.

I've used it at high speeds, but I generally like to work at lower speeds and like you pointed out, it often results in allows either one-step or an easy two-step job.

Then again, I also still work with original M105 a lot, and I think the new M105 probably works with the higher speeds better, too.

[StadiumDetail]

Re: Are pads my problem, or my skill?

Thanks for all the info guys, I guess I was just expecting 105 to be the fix-it-fast polish and that CTS was taking 6 passes at least. Also thanks for the 1000-1100rpm for 105 tip, never thought about that and I was always annoyed with the work time.

A little update with what I've learned. My father decided to wash his CLS himself, with a dirty brush and just by putting some soap on the brush and going to town, no rinse bucket, no pre-wash, nothing. Anywho, scratch city now, and lots of work for me . Been using my regular 105/205/ultrafina combo for this car and concentrating on what I've been told here. I'm getting all of the scratches and swirls out but leaving the deeper RIDS instead of concentraing on them and the work is a breeze. I'm about halfway done in 3hrs with zero holos (yes I did ISP wipes).

Thanks again!

Oh, one more question about 205 and I'll try to explain this right. When working 205 at first it doesn't spread evenly on the surface, it looks like.....well....kinda like oil streaks, it is kind of hard to explain. The longer I work the 205 it finally evens out into a smooth uniform layer (usually when I stop). Why does this happen? I would usually say it is the abrasives finally breaking down but 205 doesn't use this technology.

[speed3blackmica]

Re: Are pads my problem, or my skill?

Thanks for all the info guys, I guess I was just expecting 105 to be the fix-it-fast polish and that CTS was taking 6 passes at least. Also thanks for the 1000-1100rpm for 105 tip, never thought about that and I was always annoyed with the work time.

A little update with what I've learned. My father decided to wash his CLS himself, with a dirty brush and just by putting some soap on the brush and going to town, no rinse bucket, no pre-wash, nothing. Anywho, scratch city now, and lots of work for me . Been using my regular 105/205/ultrafina combo for this car and concentrating on what I've been told here. I'm getting all of the scratches and swirls out but leaving the deeper RIDS instead of concentraing on them and the work is a breeze. I'm about halfway done in 3hrs with zero holos (yes I did ISP wipes).

Thanks again!

Oh, one more question about 205 and I'll try to explain this right. When working 205 at first it doesn't spread evenly on the surface, it looks like.....well....kinda like oil streaks, it is kind of hard to explain. The longer I work the 205 it finally evens out into a smooth uniform layer (usually when I stop). Why does this happen? I would usually say it is the abrasives finally breaking down but 205 doesn't use this technology.

im not so sure that i can answer your last question correctly, but i can clarify that although m205 is mild, it still does contain abrasives..it does have some cutting action

[CAShine]

Re: Are pads my problem, or my skill?

Dont worry about taking your time. As other members have pointed out, by not worry about the time and focusing on whatever it takes, you will achieve the quality you seek.
Dont worry about making it "perfect" if your customer isnt seeking or paying for "perfection".

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Are pads my problem, or my skill?

Ever since I started polishing (not too long ago) I've been having an issue with the speed of correction of heavy scratches/swirls.

By your own admission, you're fairly new to this game, which is fine. It's always easiest to remove minor defects from paint that is easy to work, so when you're just getting started it can sometimes seem like paint polishing is really easy. But the challenging projects, the real hard paints, the really severe defects, are the ones that really get you thinking and learning and, ultimately, growing your skill set.

As you're discovering, while one product may work great on one car, it may be ineffective (or maybe overkill) on another. A given technique may be great for one car and likewise not optimum for another. This is where experience comes into play, where you start realizing that, as Kickin Griffin said, the paint tells you how fast to spin the buffer or how long to work it. Your 3.5 hour work time on the CTS is NOT a crazy long time for defect correction on hard paint, or when the level of defects is severe. In fact, it's probably much shorter than most top level detailers would spend on the car, especially if the owners expectations are very high.

Follow some of the recommendations set forth in this thread and take your time. You'll get where you want to go soon enough.

[BobbyG]

Re: Are pads my problem, or my skill?

The CTS was for a dealership, and they got a deal on it but they also send me a lot of business right now. Maybe I'm just thinking I'm too slow? My process was:
105/205 hood - 95% correction
105/205 Roof - 70% correction at best
105/205 trunk lid - 95% correction
205 rest of car - 85%

3.5hrs just for polishing, not rewash, clay, etc. It feels like it is too long, maybe I'm just insane

The above process used to take upwards of 5hrs using 3M's stuff, so thanks Megs for the 105/205 it is awesome.

This past weekend I buffed out the trunk lid on my wifes Toyota Camry. Going through the steps; M105, M205, IPA clean, and wax took me about 1.5 hours to complete as comparison.