Holograms, but still swirls within. not aggressive enough product or pad?

[rvx290]

(Beginner here) I have a dilemma with a dark metallic blue volvo I am working on, (I have only done a couple vehicles with the rotary and this one is the worst for scratches & swirls) I used a w7000 Pad and # 83 followed by a w8000 with #80. I beleive I went over the area too slow for too long, that is the reason for the holograms I assume? but, the reason I did this is because there were still visible swirls where I was working, am I using the totally wrong pads? should I be starting with #83 and a wool pad? or maybe even a more aggressive polish, I didnt want to go overboard, but I am thinking this cars finish is bad enough that I might have to use something pretty harsh. PS another question to add to this, it there a point where a finish cant be repaired properly or effiecently by polishes, and wet sanding is the higher step?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Holograms, but still swirls within. not aggressive enough product or pad?

Did you remove the original defects?

That is, did you remove the original defects and now what's left behind are the swirls or holograms caused by the rotary buffer?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Holograms, but still swirls within. not aggressive enough product or pad?

If you have not read the below threads already, please take a few minutes to do so now as the answers to your questions have already been addressed in the below three threads...

We get asked about this topic often enough in PM's and E-mails that we have compiled a list of threads that already address this topic below.

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4929
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4966
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19371


In a nutshell...
Using a rotary buffer to create a swirl free finish after stripping any fillers off the paint and then viewing it in the brightest sunlight can be done by some people but more often than not it has more to do with the paint system and how polishable it is versus you, your skill level, your choice of pad and product. The best thing to do and what we do for all our personal detailing work is to follow any rotary work with an application of a cleaner/polish or a cleaner/wax using a dual action polisher. Better safe than sorry...

[TH0001]

Re: Holograms, but still swirls within. not aggressive enough product or pad?

Here is the thing... Always work in great light, period. I prefer to use halegoen's (at least 500w). If you can't see the swirls with them on the paint, move them further way, and if you need to close the garage door so that the only light you have is on the paint.

Now when you are polishing the paint, you need to seperate the polishing into different steps...

Defect removal and Paint refining.

When you are doing the defect removal, work under the lights. Even using an aggresive pad or a wool pad, you should be able to "see" the defects in the haze created by the aggresive pads. Work until the defects are no longer visible, and the only thing left behind is from you.

Once you are satisfied with the level of defect removal, the work towards refininig the finish and perfecting it.

Sometimes you will remove the defects, and when you polish the paint back up and refine it, you will see some light defects you didn't get all the way. So you may have to go back and remove them again, then refine again...

Generally there is a point when you are removing so much paint that you will have to live with the defects, period. If you have a paint gauge, then it is would be recommend to measure you progress as you go so that you are not removing too much paint from the surface.

As far as finishing hologram free, this requires technique, practice, the right products, and the right paint. I would say that 95 percent or more of my details are finished with rotary polishers and 100 percent hologram free. You are going to want use a finishing pad, a mild polish (#80 will work on most paint, but #82 might be a better choice) and low RPM. You also have to make sure you break down all the abrasives in the finishing polish as you go along.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Holograms, but still swirls within. not aggressive enough product or pad?

You are going to want use a finishing pad, a mild polish (#80 will work on most paint, but #82 might be a better choice) and low RPM. You also have to make sure you break down all the abrasives in the finishing polish as you go along.

We we're going to let rvx290 digest those three threads first and then post something similar to your recommendation above.


M80 finishes out really good on single stage paints, if you're working on a clear coat finish then one of our less aggressive cleaner/polishes like M82 or M09 used with a soft finishing pad like our W-9000 or W-9006 will be your best approach for creating a swirl free finish using only a rotary buffer.

Besides pad and product selection it's also going to come down to your technique and the paint system itself as some paints are more polishable than others.

Also... clean your pad often and always remove used or spent product before applying fresh product to the panel.

[rvx290]

Re: Holograms, but still swirls within. not aggressive enough product or pad?

Did you remove the original defects?

That is, did you remove the original defects and now what's left behind are the swirls or holograms caused by the rotary buffer?

...no, In some places yes I removed the original defects, but the major part of the problem is that I did not remove the original scratches/swirl, and now within these (in bright light which I made sure I had) there are holograms as well.

....point taken on using the DA to finish things up, can't rush perfection.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Holograms, but still swirls within. not aggressive enough product or pad?

...no, In some places yes I removed the original defects, but the major part of the problem is that I did not remove the original scratches/swirl,

Your first goal is to remove all the defects or all the defects that can be safely removed without compromising the integrity of the clear coat.

Some defects are to deep to remove safely.

In your first post you listed that most aggressive combination you've used is the W-7000 Foam Cutting Pad with M83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish with a rotary buffer, in all truth, this is not that aggressive of a combination. The foam cutting pad is an aggressive cutting pad but the M83 is a cleaner/polish and not as aggressive as a true compound.

If you can locate some M84, that would be a more aggressive product that you could use with the W-7000 foam cutting pad. Another option would be to get a wool cutting pad, you could try this with the M83 as a wool pad offers a lot of cut all by itself, or again, get a true compound like the M85 or the M84 to use with a wool pad.

We also have some newer compounds available that may be available through your local PBE store.

[TH0001]

Re: Holograms, but still swirls within. not aggressive enough product or pad?

...no, In some places yes I removed the original defects, but the major part of the problem is that I did not remove the original scratches/swirl, and now within these (in bright light which I made sure I had) there are holograms as well.

....point taken on using the DA to finish things up, can't rush perfection.

This is why I recommend working under high intensity lighting. You want to make sure the defects are removed before moving on to the next step. I cannot tell you how many times I have thought I was done, only to have to step back and re polish out defects (it took me a while to learn my lesson ).

[Jason Rose]

Re: Holograms, but still swirls within. not aggressive enough product or pad?

In multi-step rotary polishing processes, swirls and/or holograms can be introduced in either the first step (compounds or paint cleaners) or the subsequent step/s (polishes.)

Your pad/product/technique combination are variables that can be dialed up or down in aggressiveness. But the one variable that I believe has the most impact on getting unwanted swirls is the topcoat hardness. Paint hardness varies dramatically from car to car...so you could use a certain pad/product combination on two cars, and get major swirls on one car and light holograms on the other.

Here is a method I use to determine where the swirls might be coming from, my first step (compound) or my second step (polish.)
- On my first step (compound) I make my buffer passes front to back (grill to tail pipe direction.)
- My second step (polish) I make my buffer passes side to side (opposite direction than 1st step)
- Then I clean the paint and put the car in sunlight or other lighting where I can easily see swirls. If my swirls or holograms are going in a front to back direction, then my first step product/pad selection may be too aggressive...OR...my second step product/pad combination was not strong enough to remove the swirl from the first step. If my swirls or holograms are going in a side to side direction, then my second step product /pad selection is likely too aggressive.

Make sense?